Topic: Edward Moore? pressed glass flower trough set.

[agincourt17]

Four pressed glass flower troughs (2 curved and 2 rectangular) in the same pattern. Clear vertically-ribbed sides, transversely-ribbed base, and beaded top edge. The two rectangular troughs  measure 9¼  inches long by 2 inches wide by 1¾  inches high. Unmarked.

(Permission for the re-use of these images on the GMB granted by dnl-antiques).

The owner had attributed them to Molineaux, Webb & Co., which they patently are not  - see RD 29780 of 14 July 1885 at https://sites.google.com/site/molwebbhistory/Home/registered-designs/molineaux-webb-designs-by-date/molineaux-webb-1885

The nearest examples that I know of were shown in the 1888 catalogue of Edward Moore, South Shields, which were from unregistered designs (and so would have been unmarked). These are shown in plate 317 on page 350 of Charles Hajdamach’s “British Glass 1800-1914".

Pressed glass flower boat of similar design was discussed at http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,11258.0.html

Does anyone have a positive attribution for the flower troughs, please?

Does anyone have photos of other shapes in the same pattern?

Fred.

[flying free]

http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,44114.msg245604.html#msg245604
This is my unmarked bridge
I was told by an anonymous collector that it was Edward Moore iirc when I listed it as possibly Davidson.  I withdrew the listing so I still have it somewhere if you would like more pics.
m

[agincourt17]

Thank you for the GMB link,m.

I see that Paul S. has already mentioned the troughs in the 1888 Edward Moore catalogue

The 1888 Edward Moore catalogue in Hajdamach BG 1800-1914 shows a ‘bridge’ posy #738 with distinct feet (presumably designed to stand upright) like your example, and a similar trough (#978) without feet lying on its ‘side’. The clarity of the illustrations is not particularly good so it is difficult to see the details of the decoration, but the sides of the troughs seem to be devoid of ribbing (whereas other troughs shown are definitely ribbed).

Looking at the Edward Moore catalogue in more detail reveals that the curved trough #974 has no feet, but the vertical ribbing seems to be grouped as 3 (or possibly 4) narrow ribs alternating with a single wider rib. The rectangular trough #970 has alternating groups of vertical ribs like #974, whereas rectangular trough #9976 has feet, flattened sides, and evenly-spaced vertical ribs. So, although there are similarities between the troughs in the Edward Moore 1888 catalogue , ‘my’ rectangular and curved troughs, and your bridge trough, these disparities make me doubtful that they from that source.

The Molineaux Webb RD 70422 heart-shaped flower trough certainly has the correct type of reeded decoration to the base and sides and beaded decoration to the top edge, but I have never seen marked examples in any other shape. Possiblility of a MW unregistered version?

The attribution of curved troughs similar to ‘mine’ as possibly an 1881 Sowerby –patented design at
http://www.museum.bristolblueglass.com/flower-troughs-ca-1890-possibly-sowerby/#.UnIpnlNbOxk
has, so far, failed to reveal any hard evidence for the supposition, but I will continue to look for it. 

The Meisenthal 1907 examples at
http://www.glas-musterbuch.de/Meisenthal-1907.124+B6YmFja1BJRD0xMjQmcHJvZHVjdElEPTU1NjgmcGlkX3Byb2R1Y3Q9MTI0JmRldGFpbD0_.0.html
are certainly strong candidates for ‘my’ troughs. The rectangular trough #2500/1 is a very good match, as is the curved trough #2503.

Interestingly, Meisenthal 1907 #2505 is a ‘bridge’ trough lying on its side (like the Edward Moore #978), without feet and with obvious vertically-ribbed sides and a beaded top. Also, the Meisenthal troughs include a small swan trough # 2515 (and Moore had a swan trough #960), a triangular trough #2509 (and Moore shows very similar triangular troughs  #985 and #971). I wonder if the Meisenthal glassworks acquired some of the Moore moulds after the factory closed (though Hajdamach says that they were acquired by Davidson)?

So – possibly Meisenthal / Edward Moore / Molineaux Webb / Sowerby / Davidson – any more for the Skyark?!!

Fred.

[Keencollector]

Hello Fred,

I have the two semi circle table decorations in the enclosed photo.  They are opalescent and not marked.  The heart shaped piece is the same pattern but with more opalesence and is marked Rd. 70422, Molineaux Webb & Co., 23rd March 1887.

Some time ago I corresponded with an experienced glass dealer in England concerning the long boat shape in this pattern  They reported that it was Joseph Webb ??

I have seen the two semi circles set up with the bridge across the centre in clear glass and it looks very effective.  Hope this is of some help.

Margaret.

[pamela]

not Meisenthal, I'd say, because the pattern of base is completely different, i.e. smaller diamonds instead of ribs.

edited to add: unsure now after having noticed that the curved pieces of my set have a ribbed base also...

apologies 

[agincourt17]

Thank you,  Margaret and Pamela.

Interesting to see Margaret’s opalescent versions – a pity that they are not marked, but I suppose that Molineaux Webb are still strong contenders as possible manufacturer.

Has anyone seen examples of the rectangular ribbed and beaded troughs in opalescent (or other coloured) glass to match Margaret’s round ones?

I too have seen a boat-shaped trough in this pattern (see my attached  photos of an example, 14¾ inches long x 1¾ inches high)  attributed to Joseph Webb, though Paul S. has actually shown the design representation to the Jane Webb &c boat RD 268883 of 19 December 1872 – Parcel 3 as reply#7 at
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,54366.0.html
and it definitely shows clinker-built sides , not vertically-ribbed sides with a beaded top edge.

The vertically-ribbed and beaded boat in my photos has a beaded base and longitudinally- ribbed prows (not a transversely-ribbed base like the flower troughs). There is a similar ribbed and beaded boat shown in the 1907 Meisenthal catalogue as #2502, though unfortunately the catalogue illustration is ambiguous as to whether the base is ribbed or beaded.

Cat showed a similar boat for discussion at
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,11258.0.html
but which quite clearly has a transversely-ribbed base, with no conclusive attribution apparently forthcoming.

Fred

[agincourt17]

Another related GMB topic link
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,54633.0.html

This links to the glass boat trough with transverse ridges on the base, and the 1907 Meisenthal catalogue troughs (both the boat and the #2504 part round flower trough ).

In that topic, James Measall also mentions a ridged flower arch / bridge bearing the lozenge of 25 May 1871 – [parcel 12], corresponding to RD 252823, registered by John Henry Wood, London (and who, Anne tells us,  is the Wood of Pellatt and Wood). Unfortunately, James does not provide us with a photograph.

A quick online search for the registration summary at TNA reveals that RD 252823 was, in fact, registered under 3 separate classes:
Class 1: metal; Subject: Flower circle (flowers not registered); nature of design: metal/glass/earthenware.
Class 3: glass; Description: Flower circle Flowers not registered.
Class 4: earthenware; Subject: Flower arch, flowers not registered.

So the registration subjects / descriptions are in accord with a flower circle or arch in glass and / or earthenware. Perhaps the metalware bit was for some kind of mount or support? The definitive answer would presumably be the design representations. I wonder if Paul S. has them for RD 252823 to hand and, if so, would care to post them here in due course, please? If not, I will add them to the GMB RD look-up requests.

In the meantime, does anyone have a photo of an actual example of the RD 252823 flower arch / bridge to show us, please, for comparison with some of the other flower arches / troughs?

Fred.

[Keencollector]

This is another version of the table decoration but I think I can remember the base pattern was different to the Molineaux Webb heart shape I have.

Manufactured by Issac Barnes & Co, whose addresses were 1862, 44 Cambridge Street, Birmingham, 1873 44 Edmund Street and in 1874 311 Broad Street.  I have found record of twelve registrations but as it was a while ago, can't remember which number the table decoration was.  If anyone interested I can supply dates and rd. numbers, but you experienced researchers on GMB probably know them already.

[agincourt17]

Thank you, Margaret.

Your photo seems to show a beaded pattern to the base of the round nearest to the camera (not unlike the beaded base in my photos of the  boat trough that I show).

Aren't these unmarked pressed glass pieces a nightmare, though? - these flower trough variants must have been produced in their millions and yet so few manufacturers sought to permanently mark their wares. Perhaps the fear of unfavourable copyright infringement litigation was a factor, yet nowadays every article seems to be plastered with advertising logos or labels (whether misleading or not). I suppose many of these Victorian glass items could have been marked with paper labels, but if so, you would have thought that a significant number would have survived the passage of time.

The Isaac Barnes & Co. connection is interesting in itself (as attributed designs from Birmingham registrants or manufacturers seem to be uncommon and poorly documented) so I would be most grateful if you would post them here for reference and further research in any case. In the meantime, I will search for the Barnes design summaries online at The National Archives and see what transpires.

Fred

[Paul S.]

Unfortunately, for whatever reason, I seem not to have a picture of Rd. 252823 - although can of course rectify this next week.     I do have a photograph of the Register entry, however, and all that you say appears correct  -  I thought it amusing that the register comments that 'flowers not Registered'.          The address of John Henry Wood is shown as 25 Baker Street, Portman Square, London.

Fred - in your post No. 6, yesterday, think your first link is not the one you intended possibly  -  I see nothing there from James Measall  -  the link appears to stay with this thread??