Topic: Is this a 'Prussian' shaped, three ring, late Georgian decanter?

[nick.a]

Hi Mike,
Thanks for the information. You're right about the wide, shallow vertical cuts, I'd say about 2mm deep. It would be nice to think that this could be my first piece of 18thc glass, that knocks 30 years off my best case scenario. We live in hope .
Cheers
Nick

[Paul S.]

thanks for the ebay link.        There is an (unwritten) practice here that we don't comment on individual listings, but from what I can see the word Newcastle, which forms part of the description of similar decanters looks to be at odds with McConnell's use of the word, in terms of general shape.
Similarly shaped bottles to those shown in your link appear to be described elsewhere as straight forward c. mid C19 pillar-moulded ribbed bell decanters  -  and you can see the bell-shaped likeness in most of them - one of the most distinctive shape of all bottles.
My opinion is that this ribbed bell-shape of decanter - probably dip-moulded rather than free blown - appears not to be related to those prussians and tapers from a little earlier in the C19, which were originally called 'Newcastle' type (whether rightly or wrongly)

Also, as far as I can see in the books, the supposed Newcastle bottles look to have almost always had the applied three neck rings which the pillar-moulded examples don't.

There may be the thought in the minds of some sellers which believes that word association - especially if implying rarity - gives added kudos and value.

As an alternative to re-locating your dwelling - you might consider buying a shed or two

[nick.a]

Thanks Paul, very helpful as always. I'll delete Newcastle from my description and replace it with 'bell-shaped' and 'pillar moulded'. I'll keep adding to the literature over time, as it's apparent that any information gathered from anywhere else, excepting certain glass specific websites, should be taken with a pinch of salt. So much to learn. London town house I'm afraid, postage-stamp garden with little room for a shed
Kind Regards
Nick

[Baked_Beans]

Hi Nick,

It's those wide shallow cuts which, according to Therle Hughes , were introduced as a design feature in the 1820/30's and other cuts started to get deeper during the start of the 19th century. So it would date your 'Prussian' one to 1820/30 , assuming it's not a later copy. What I was trying to say is that the base  looks similar to the base on examples from c1790 . Perhaps the base didn't change much up until c1820/30's ? (you would need a decanter expert to comment on that ! )......Cheers, Mike.

[Baked_Beans]

Iv'e been looking at photos of late Georgian decanters (books/internet) and the bases can be flat , flat & cut , concave ...so not much help there !

Therle Hughes says in her book that 'The Prussian shape  ' was 'named and illustrated by John Keeling of Dudley in 1784 '.

She also mentions that mushroom stoppers during the late Georgian period were usually flat on the underside and decanters 'would often be fitted with stoppers from outside suppliers , using perhaps a slightly different quality of glass'  . There is a photo, however, in 'Irish Glass' by Mary Boydell of a mushroom stopper that is the same shape as this example which dates from c1830 but it has vertical cuts made to the underside.

I'm going to have to get Andy's book , when it's reprinted !

Cheers, Mike 

[bat20]

Hi,been following this thread with interest since I'd found one some time ago and I'm fairly certain it's a Prussian from the early 19th,it has the colour,wear in the right places and bits in the glass including stopper,the stopper fits like a glove but it ain't flat on the underside,something that I had noticed from flicking about the intoe,don't know if this helps or hinders?

[Baked_Beans]

Very interesting !

Perhaps the underside and 'stalk' of the mushroom stopper were left blank in these examples ?

'Irish Glass ' by Mary Boydell is part of 'The Irish Heritage Series' and is number 5 . It's a booklet published by Eason & Sons Ltd , Dublin in 1976. Published in Great Britain by Jarrold & Sons Ltd , Norwich . 

Thanks Bat

[bat20]

I think there could be so many variables as well Mike,I was pondering today at work wether they would regularly get new stoppers when theirs were damaged,cheap skilled labour and all,so some may have been on their umpteenth stopper by the mid century maybe?

[Baked_Beans]

Yes, I'm sure the outside suppliers of stoppers would have had a replacement service. 


I found my old copy of Letts ' English Bottles and Decanters 1650-1900 ' by Derek C. Davis.

There are a number of late Georgian decanters illustrated with mushroom stoppers which taper and are not flat underneath .

Some of the tapering ones have slice cut shafts others are left blank . The tapering ones would have been far easier to cut (i would imagine) than mushroom stoppers that were completely flat to the underside.

[bat20]

Oh joy..a book for under a fiver,thanks Mike pushing the button on that one