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Author Topic: c.1750 18th century engraved goblet sold 1989 as Russian  (Read 4044 times)

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Offline flying free

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c.1750 18th century engraved goblet sold 1989 as Russian
« on: January 05, 2016, 01:21:58 AM »
This goblet was sold in 1989 as:
'The thistle-shaped bowl decorated with a hand emerging from clouds crowning a heart within a circular cartouche surrounded by floral foliage, inscribed above in Russian For Constancy, with a facet cut lower part and knopped inverted baluster stem, above a folded conical foot, circa 1750<br>'

http://russianauctions.ru/lot/28808/

Interesting from the point of view of two threads really.
Firstly I have a gilded glass egg with a crown set on top of something, possibly a heart which I believe is Russian and 18th century.  Secondly we have had another goblet on here with a hand coming out of the clouds, appearing to pick a heart up from a number of hearts and this might help id it.

So is this particular goblet Russian?  It has a Russian inscribed saying around the top apparently translating as 'For Constancy'.

Thanks for any help.

m

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Offline oldglassman

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Re: c.1750 18th century engraved goblet sold 1989 as Russian
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2016, 08:53:54 AM »
Hi ,
           My opinion would be that the glass is German/Saxon, the form, thistle bowl and facet cutting is very typical of mid 18thc glass from this region , it is very common to find inscriptions on German glass in various languages , German of course also Dutch and french , I suppose for supply to those countries, having had a quick look at the Rijksmuseum catalogue all in this form are described as German/Saxon mid 18th C

cheers ,

Peter.

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Offline flying free

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Re: c.1750 18th century engraved goblet sold 1989 as Russian
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2016, 12:46:58 PM »
Thank you Peter.  I'm aware there are probably subtle differences between glasses and between engraving on the glass that I cannot 'see' because I know absolutely nothing about goblets.  But this one was sold at Sothebys in 2002 I think and appears to me to be a very similar shape. 

AN ENGRAVED IMPERIAL GLASS GOBLET

18th century

Of baluster form, engraved with the cypher of Elizabeth Petrovna and the Imperial eagle with flowers This lot contains 1 item(s).

http://russianauctions.ru/lot/19879/

I suppose I'm wondering if there was a cross over period in style of design and making whereby that shape might also have been made in Russia, as there is also a very similar thistle shaped goblet also faceted, with lid, int the book Russian Glass of the 17th-20th centuries no 9. that is described as  'Engraved with reindeer. Vasily Maltsov's glassworks, engraved by Stepan Lagutin, mid 18th century'?

The book also says on page 17
'Many products of the St Petersburg factory survive.  These are chiefly goblets, beakers, tumblers....  .  They attest vividly to the vitality of engraving at that time. ... Inevitably, the presence of foreign engravers was reflected in the  character of the decoration, which in many ways resembles the Bohemian, Silesian, and Saxon styles.  However, the presence of these different influences imparted a unique character to the glass of St Petersburg.  In addition,the Russian masters interpreted the foreign styles in their own way while remaining faithful to traditional tastes both in the choice of subjects and in the composition of their engravings.'

So I'm just wondering if this is the case with these glasses and their shape I suppose.

m

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Offline oldglassman

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Re: c.1750 18th century engraved goblet sold 1989 as Russian
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2016, 01:18:05 PM »
Hi ,
           re the linked glass , there is also the possability for this one that the glass is not Russian or engraved in Russia, but made for the Russian market, but as always I could be completely wrong , I don't have enough knowledge of Russian glass to be in anyway certain,  could similar items to the glasses I do know about(German/Saxon) also have been made in Russia ?, why not ?, without signatures it can be very difficult to be 100% certain as to where anything was made, ie Venetian ? or Facon de Venise ? Dutch,Belgian, Spanish etc , opinions on some these types has changed considerably in the last few years.

I hope your digging around throws up some more info on Russian 18thc glass production, I for 1 would like to know more.

cheers ,

Peter.

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Offline oldglassman

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Re: c.1750 18th century engraved goblet sold 1989 as Russian
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2016, 01:37:52 PM »
Hi,
Just noticed the change to your post re St Petersburg glass which I think highlights the difficulty in specific attribution with so much copying of styles in both glass and decoration and the use of foreign workers,

the more you dig , more questions arise , I suspect you will only get an informed answer re your glass with in hand examination from someone with specific knowledge on Russian glass ,   looking forward to the next instalment

cheers ,
Peter.

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Offline flying free

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Re: c.1750 18th century engraved goblet sold 1989 as Russian
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2016, 01:59:24 PM »
Apologies Peter. I never know whether to add another post or amend and was aware you hadn't seen that extra info drawn from the book.  So yes, I think there appears to have been quite a crossover of style probably.

I don't know whether they would have needed to import glass at that time - it's very hard to be definite about details of course. But I presume it's possible.  The gist of what I've been reading is that there was quite a lot of glass making around in the 18th.
'More than 80 private glassworks were built in Russia during the 1700s.' Page 18
and there is more. 
However, I would guess that any information is pretty hard to come by and I don't get the feeling from reading the information, that it's complete, because as is always the case, I think it simply isn't possible to portray a definitive and complete picture with the information that has been or is available.
From what I read Maltsov was the big producer ' By 1738, the Mozhaysk factory had turned into one of the major enterprises of the Russian glass industry.' and it goes on to give details of number of furnaces and engraving wheels and they are numerous.

However, also from what I read they were short of skilled workmen and amongst other measures to redress this, it does say that three Bohemian masters were signed by Vasili Maltsov in 1730 including a Joseph Genkin(an engraver) who stayed at the factory from 1730-1737 and then moved to Gottlieb Stenzel's factory in Dukhanino.

The book  also acknowledges that without signatures it's difficult now to determine which engraved glasses can be attributed to the Maltsovs.  But re the reindeer goblet it says
'A typical specimen of Maltsov's production is a goblet with gilded engraving that shows a running wounded deer and the inscription " A Flight from Illness' (no.9).'  .... 'The goblet may have been engraved by Stepan Lagutin, who began to work at the Maltsov glasshouse in 1732. He was trained by Joseph Genkin and later replaced him as the leading master. ' 
As I said earlier quoting from the book, Genkin was a Bohemian master so I'm guessing from that, that there will have possibly been some Bohemian influence in the engraving and possibly influence passed on from Bohemian master to Russian engraving master who replaced him.

And on page 19 it says ' ...This chronology shows that in the first half of the 18th century, glass was engraved in Russia in at least four private factories besides those in Yamburg and St Petersburg.'

It's very interesting.  Mostly because I absolutely love Russian glass and design and especially, for me,  the 19th century glass.  They are exquisitely made with great precision and design details, very graphic, confident, glass in terms of colour, cutting, engraving and overall design.

And once you start looking at 19th century, then you start looking at 18th century and so it goes ... :)

m

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Offline bat20

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Re: c.1750 18th century engraved goblet sold 1989 as Russian
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2016, 05:31:42 PM »
Well found m,I think the Russian church was very much Catholic,so this could be the heart of Jesus...or Mary apparently....or Queen of my heart ???, If Russian you would have to think imported craftsmen from Germany.

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Offline flying free

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Re: c.1750 18th century engraved goblet sold 1989 as Russian
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2016, 05:46:38 PM »
I am not sure this particular glass has anything to do with religion. And I don't read anything about the Catholic religion here when reading about the Orthodox Church :-\  (caveat is that I know absolutely nothing about Russian Orthodoxy or Catholicism)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Orthodox_Church

I read it as a message perhaps from a loved one to another, about remaining constant (faithful? longevity of love? longevity of relationship?).
I think the emblem of putting a crown on the heart might be a love message or about the 'monarch'  - ok scrub that,
 I think the arm and heart are just 'messages' but not particularly about love/religion/etc.
Perhaps the arm just represents the faith in a higher being or perhaps it just means 'wishing' if you see what I mean? as in 'wishing our marriage longevity/constancy/faithfulness'.  But doesn't mean the glass is linked particularly to religion of any sort.

On the other hand yes, it could mean faithfulness to a religion.

m

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Offline oldglassman

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Re: c.1750 18th century engraved goblet sold 1989 as Russian
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2016, 06:27:50 PM »
Hi ,
             Glasses with arms issuing from clouds (or are some frilly cuffs ,not clouds ?) as you probably know are not that uncommon,they can be found with a pair of clasped hands along with inscriptions relating to friendship and wishing success for a marriage etc , these hands I would read as representing nothing more than "people" 2 people clasping hands in friendship or the joining of 2 people ,single hands I would then interpret as a single person expressing as "m" says depending on the rest of the image ,love ,devotion or some other sentiment, so the hands i think represent nothing more than 1 or 2 persons,

if time allows tomorrow I will try and post a few pics of some hands .

cheers ,

Peter.

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Offline flying free

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Re: c.1750 18th century engraved goblet sold 1989 as Russian
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2016, 07:07:22 PM »
oh yes, I forgot they were cuffs :) 
So, no, I would say not a 'higher being' then  ;D

And sorry bat, I think on your glass thread we talked at length about religion, and the hands, but since then I've probably done more research and seen more and came to the conclusion that they really are just text messages for the 18th century. 

I have to confess I'm more interested in the Cyrillic script and the fact that the crown on the heart  message is apparently 'For Constancy' as it relates possibly to my egg.
m

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