Topic: Old Cut Glass Lidded Bowl or Sweetmeat Jar

[cutglassfan]

Hello List,
I'm a newbie, and this is my first posting. I have always loved cut glass but have only recently started collecting older objects and my most recent purchase is baffling me. It's very ornately cut all over with strawberry diamonds and the lid and body both have a swirling pattern of what I can only call Paisley pattern teardrop shapes. It's about 6 inches high and very heavy for its size at over 1 kilo but I just have no idea whether it's old English/Irish or a more modern European item in the style of older pieces. It has a lovely high ring to it and the lid is a perfect fit so it feels like quality piece but I have no idea about its age or origins, and I'm not even sure what to call it - is it an old sweetmeat jar or just a more modern lidded bowl or trinket pot? Any opinions or pointers would be most helpful!
Thanks,
Jay

[brucebanner]

Very nice, similar to a few Richardsons designs from the 1850's that are  in Hajdamach British glass 1800-1915, especially the decanter on page 105, it could be a lidded honey or sugar.

[Paul S.]

regret I've not looked in C.H. as Chris suggests  -  I hope he's correct and your piece is the age Chris mentions - and I always think those deep curved mitres are a sign of quality - they're not easy to produce.

Some suggestions for you for future possible aids to dating would be............     are there any seeds/stones in the glass...... what is the extent of wear under the foot  - always good to post a picture of the underside of the foot anyway, as the number of radial cuts on the star can help to date.           Unfortunately, such features have been copied on later pieces and need to be read in conjunction with others - so easy to get it wrong.
Sadly, cut designs such as this very often show some damage to the high parts of the bowl (the midriff and edges of the lid), and the peaks of relief diamonds will also be nicked  - after all such items were intended for use.
Of course, if you've paid a lot for this one then you may have a high quality example without damage and with little wear to the foot.
Assume there isn't a spoon cut-out in the lid.
If you do get to read C.H., you'll see the problems caused by later copies, and the replicating of some early C19 features too, and don't over look the States Brilliant period (brilliant as in sparkle  -  they had a fondness for putting a cut on every square mm of the glass).       From memory I think this was the early C20.

Big pain in the rear is that there isn't available a good book on British cut glass - so we have to make do with small snippets spread across a number of volumes.

Your pix are quite good, but you will find that contrast and detail will improve if you photograph against a uniformly dark background.

[cutglassfan]

Thanks to both Chris and Paul for their valuable input.
I have taken a large set of photographs of this piece from all angles so I am putting up a few more with this reply to see if they give any more clues. There is no cut-out in the lid for a spoon or ladle, which is why I didn't consider the possibility of a honey or jam pot. There is some wear on the base, more than usually appears on a modern piece but not a huge amount so I wonder if it has spent most of its life on a soft surface, and there are lots of tiny nicks here and there but nothing obvious, you have to go looking for them, so it's about as good as you can get without paying a fortune for a rare undamaged item. No seeds or flaws within the glass that I can see. It is clearly a piece that was used for its intended purpose, whatever that was. Strangely, most of the nicks are around the rim on the underside of the bowl, at the top of the stem, which seems a funny place to pick up knocks as it's so 'out of the way' compared to the areas which are more naturally exposed to damage, unless that's a clue to its use. I have just spotted a footed bowl for sale on eBay with a very similar 'Paisley' pattern, and that is described as early Victorian. I paid very little for this piece - less than £10 - so I think it was a rather good find.
Thoughts and views appreciated,
Jay

[Paul S.]

certainly impressed with those deep curved mitres, a feature of some Walsh cut glass, although not yet had the courage to plough through Reynolds extracts from the factory pattern books - although this bowl may well pre-date those drawings.

Cut glass, without a backstamp, is arguably the most difficult of all glass to find attribution for, and have a feeling that you may not progress any further with this one  -  perhaps that's what puts people off collecting the stuff.     
Good looking bowl nonetheless and for the money definitely a steal.                Ebay descriptions have been the subject of many disagreements and always wise to treat with caution -  paisley pattern has been around for a long time - Persian in origin apparently.          I've look through a variety of British produced books, but nowhere can I find a specific reference to this word in relation to cut glass, although it did occur apparently on some pressed glass from the middle of the C19.     Don't see it mentioned either in my couple of States books on ABP

[cutglassfan]

Thanks Paul. Yes, I completely agree with you about the attribution of old cut glass, but that certainly doesn't put me off collecting it although it might explain why I seem to get so many good bargains - I thought I was just lucky but perhaps it's because no-one else wants them! I just buy things because I like them, which I think is the best reason for collecting something, instead of the who/when/value type of collecting. I'll have to upload some photographs of my other bargains to see what people make of those. My favourite item is another lidded bowl, a 'classic' sweetmeat this time, with a lovely facet-cut ball finial. It looks old, because of the slight yellow/grey colour of the glass, but I'm not sure if it's an early 19th century piece or a later copy. Again, this one is in remarkable condition with just a few very tiny nibbles hidden within the cutting - the base, amazingly, is perfect on all four corners. Here are some photos of that piece. 

[Paul S.]

very attractive  -  that prism or step-cutting is uncommon on such pieces  -   though found not uncommonly on decanters as you will know.

The Georgian/Regency square bevelled thick foot has been repeated many times in the C20, so an unreliable guide to dating I'm afraid.   I shall refrain from attempting to id  -  think I've come to the conclusion that it's best to have these things in the hand to feel passably happy about age.

Excluding shapes and cutting patterns, we aren't left with a great deal with which to assess age, and to some extent there is an argument for saying that experience and a 'feel' for something can tell you whether it's 'right' or not.
Somehow you can't fake 200 years plus of age and a piece of glass will take on almost indefinable characteristics that can speak and say, I'm old.

Keep on buying  -  I agree that there are some really good bargains to be had in cut glass  -  just try to avoid the masses of C20 run-of-the-mill
bowls and vases that proliferate, and if possible try to buy pieces with provenance (backstamp).
Have attached a link to one of the better C20 pieces I found  -  from the Walsh factory - and fortunately for me it was marked.    http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,48450.msg273141.html#msg273141

[cutglassfan]

Thanks Paul,
Yes, I try to avoid what I call 'Department Store Crystal', i.e. the branded tableware/giftware type of stuff which is, ironically, what first got me into cut glass as a boy as my mother also likes cut glass so we always had it about the house and on the dining table but she likes the modern Waterford/Stuart/Brierley type stuff with named patterns, which is fine for using but not really for serious collecting as it's hardly rare, although it does at least have the benefit of being signed, and I am partial to a bit of Webb Corbett! So, I now have my collection of modern table crystal for day-to-day use (easily replaced if broken) and my separate collection of 'old' glass which is more highly prized, by me at any rate. I've only recently discovered Walsh but I think I spotted a rather large footed bowl by Walsh on eBay not long ago - it looked a very fine piece but the seller was asking too much so I didn't buy it. I'm a really mean bargain hunter! On the upside, it's good to know that there is a community of interested cut glass collectors out there and I see that I have a lot to learn on the technical side in terms of properly describing and analysing patterns. Methinks I need a second-hand reference book or two, or three ...

[Paul S.]

Eric Reynolds book 'The Glass of John Walsh Walsh' is, admittedly, concerned with just the one factory, but it's a reliable and very useful volume, but no idea of the second hand price on Abe Books - hopefully not too much.
Some of the Miller's volumes from ten or so years back have the odd few pages on cut glass, but as I've already said it's an area where the Brits are served poorly, especially the period 1850 - 1970.                 
Nigel's collaboration with Jeanette Heyhurst 'Art Deco to Post Modernism' is well worth having, if you can find it  -  I'd imagine now very scarce.

If you have Georgian/Regency in mind then G. Bernard Hughes did one or two  -  perhaps 'English Glass for the Collector  1660 - 1860' is one of his better ones, and Ward Lloyd's 'Investing in Georgian Glass' is high end mostly but very useful   -  and Bickerton if you're into drinking glasses from that period.

Just keep poking around - there can often be as much fun in the hunting as in the finding  - but I think we should have started collecting 40 years ago:)

[Paul S.]

you can add Phelps Warren's 'Irish Glass  -  from the Age of Exuberance.........     Regency etc.

Roy is another collector of cut glass  -  am sure we'd benefit from his knowledge, perhaps he would like to comment.