I have been questioning the date line for gold ruby glass as given in discussion on this thread.
I said I thought this date line might be too prescriptive.
In reply #28 specific dates were mentioned [note – this quote is taken out of context, please read were whole thread for discussion context]:
‘Reply #28
Once again from Corning , first phase came with Kunckel c 1684 and ended probably along with the death of his patron in 1688, the second phase began c 1719 and continued in a lesser scale till the 1740s , nothing then till rediscovery c 1835 by Pohl’ – Source given as ‘Glass of the Alchemists’
I gave examples from the Hermitage Museum, of items they had listed as gold ruby that appeared to date outside that timeframe (I referred to them as ‘evidence’) (my reply#30)
I also cited a reference document which did not appear to be as prescriptive in dates (reply #32)
It was suggested that the examples I gave from the Hermitage were not conflicting ‘evidence’ but conflicting ‘opinions’ (reply#36).
It was also suggested the validity of the Hermitage reference links I had given might be in question because the Hermitage had incorrectly attributed other items (the links to those items are given in that reply #36):
- Two of those links provided were stated to be not gold ruby but French ‘gorge de pigeon’.
- It was stated that the other three linked items were listed as gold ruby glass but that no gold ruby could be seen in them. (reply #36)
I responded (with linked reference sources - reply #46) asking if it was possible that the Hermitage had actually correctly attributed those items (queried in reply #36) as gold ruby and giving a possible explanation why (reply#36)
I gave further examples of why gold ruby glass might fall outside that date line (reply#38)
In reply#41 I posed the question again [note – this is out of context, please read the whole reply for context]:
‘I was simply questioning that from what I read, it seems it might have been possible that gold-ruby glass was produced after 1740 and before c.1835, the date that was stated that Pohl re-invented it.’Here are other examples I have come across in my previous reading and which may have triggered me to question the date line as given in reply #28
1)
The book ‘Glass of the Alchemists’ was dated 2008.
There was an exhibition to accompany the book. The Corning Museum website says this:
‘Glass of the Alchemists explored Northern European glass of the Baroque period and examined the technical advances in glassmaking made by alchemists during that time…
…The exhibition ended with the Warrior Vase, a splendid example of colorless and gold ruby cameo glass made in China in the 18th or 19th century, and a curiosity: a gold ingot that Johann Friedrich Bottger produced in the presence of King Augustus II of Poland in 1713, claiming that he made it by transmuting base metal.’
Source:
http://www.cmog.org/collection/exhibitions/alchemistsWith regard the date for that Warrior vase, on their website The Corning has it as made in China and dated
‘1736-1795’
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/warrior-vase-stand2)
In the book ‘From Neuwelt to the Whole World’ dated 2012 (Jan Mergl ) there are a number of examples of gold ruby glass in the book that are dated to before c.1835:
Page 71 - no 46 ‘Ruby glass (composite gold ruby)’ - ‘Beaker execution: c.1820’
Page 71 - no 48 ‘Ruby glass (composite gold ruby)’ – ‘Sugar bowl with lid execution: c.1825’
There is also this one:
Page 91- no 73 ‘Ruby glass (composite gold ruby)’ – ‘Beaker execution: c.1830’
And
Page 100 - no 98 ‘Ruby glass (composite gold ruby)’ - Jug execution: before 1835
There are three more examples of ‘Ruby glass (composite gold ruby) on page 93 dated ‘execution: after 1830’
3)
In a much earlier book Das Bohmische Glas band II:
Page 82 II.96
Karaffe - a gold ruby jug with lid attributed as:
‘Vermutlich Hutte Paulina auf der Buquoyschen Herrschaft Gratzen in Sudbohmen, um 1803’’
4)
The Corning has other examples on their website:
See this Chinese bowl described as gold ruby glass and dated 1736-1795
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/bowl-7915)
and this one dated 1736-1795
‘B) Gold ruby bowl; minute bubbles and some larger impurities. Cast, engraved in low relief (Hochschnitt), with flaring rim and tapered wall that is rounded toward hollow base; subconical foot-ring. l is engraved with landscape: rocks and flowering plum tree and magnolia and longtailed pheasant. On base, Qianlong’s four-character mark within square, double-lined border.’
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/2-bowls-1 6)
The Corning also has this Russian vase from the Imperial Glassworks, Russia St Petersburg dated ‘about 1829’
They describe it as:
‘PRIMARY DESCRIPTION
Gold-ruby, colorless glasses, bronze, gilding; blown, overlaid, tooled, applied, cut, polished, cast, gilded, ad-hered, assembled. The vase has a narrow flaring…’
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/vase-10977)
As noted in reply#, there was an exhibition held in 2014 in the State Historical Museum in Russia.
On display was a covered red glass piece described as ‘gold ruby’ glass and dated to turn of the 19th century
http://russia-insider.com/en/russian-glass-xviii-twentieth-centuries-state-historical-museum/5552 8)The gorge de pigeon glass vases (a question raised now over whether they may or may not be called 'gold ruby' glass) discussed in my earlier post above have a date reference:
The text from the French site says that two vases were given to the Sevres Museum in 1828 by Bercy.
‘In ancient inspiration, the classic forms of these two crystal vases opal bicolor - pink, said gorge-de-pigeon, and amethyst - adorned with two birds in ormolu treated in the round, combine exceptionally two colors characteristics of production of the Restoration: bone ash, arsenic and tin are the main components of this opacification, which are added pink obtained by the addition of salts of gold and purple from manganese oxide . Models combining two hot colors, however, are extremely rare in the repertoire of French crystal opals from the early nineteenth century. Among the few known examples are those given in 1828 by the manufacture of Bercy in Sevres museum.’
Source:
http://www.lesartsdecoratifs.fr/francais/musees/musee-des-arts-decoratifs/parcours/xixe-siecle/le-gout-sous-la-restauration/paire-de-vases-medicisObviously, these are all examples rather than 'dated pattern book linked evidence'.
But with all these examples taken together with all the previous examples I have given, it appears to me to still raise the question:
'Are the dates given earlier in this thread for the production of gold ruby glass, too prescriptive'?
It is of course possible that all these examples I have given are incorrectly dated. However there are many of them now and enough for me to think the question is a reasonable one.
Topic: Small facet cut stem ruby glass - Gorge de pigeon / Gold-ruby instead (Read 14137 times)
