Topic: Small facet cut stem ruby glass - Gorge de pigeon / Gold-ruby instead

[flying free]

I am a bit clearer on trying to explain what I mean now so hopefully it is not as confusing.

I am trying to get to the bottom of two questions:

1) Was 'gold ruby' glass produced between 1740 and 1835? 

I ask this question because it has been stated on this thread that 'gold ruby' glass was not produced again after 'around 1740' until it was 're-discovered by Pohl in 1835'.  (Reference for this assertion - The Glass of Alchemists 2008)

I have disagreed with this dateline and said it is too prescriptive. 

To show why I disagree I have given example references (from books and museums and conferences), some of a much more recent date than the 2008 of the book cited above, of glass that is red in appearance  and that is stated as being 'gold ruby' glass, along with  dates of production of those pieces, the dates of which fall before 1835.
(the colour point of it being red is relevant only because the next question discusses glasses that are pink in appearance)
 
I have also given a reference that Lomonosov in Russia had a recipe for 'gold ruby' glass (c.2nd half 18th century) that was passed on to the Imperial Glass manufactory (this is relevant also because the Hermitage show a number of items classified as 'gold ruby' glass that date pre-1835 including some in red, along with some in a pink we know as the colour 'Gorge-de-pigeon'.)

Note: So far I have not read anywhere that the colour 'Gorge-de-pigeon' is trademarked and denotes only a glass made in France. 
The term Gorge-de-pigeon is also used to describe some silk taffeta for example which is a pinky purply lilacy grey colour depending on the light you view it. 
So for example this perfume bottle was put on the Glass Message Board a while ago.  It has the same gilding as a piece identified as Bohemian.  You can see from the appearance and the translucence of the glass that it looks very like the colour 'Gorge-de-pigeon' http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=53466.0;attach=134984;image
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,53466.msg303506.html#msg303506



2) Is 'Gorge-de-pigeon' glass produced between c. 1810-1830s  (dates given from museums and books references) actually 'gold ruby' glass?

This question 2)  is relevant to question 1) because:
a)  Having read various descriptions* of the making of 'gold ruby' glass and 'Gorge-de-pigeon' glass I think it could be possible that 'Gorge-de-pigeon' glass could actually be 'gold ruby' glass but with an excess of tin in the making, which has given the glass some opacity/translucence and turned the appearance to pink rather than red. 

And
b) If this is the case, the datelines given for the production of some 'Gorge-de-pigeon' glass pieces is as early as 1810,  which  would be another reference for 'gold ruby' glass being produced prior to c.1835.

And
c) it would mean that the Hermitage do not have all their descriptions incorrectly listed as 'gold ruby' glass. 
This is only relevant because it would be helpful to know that what we are reading is correct especially when it comes from museums.  Not because I am the local PR for the Hermitage 

(*Note: When I say having read various descriptions of the making of 'Gorge-de-pigeon' glass, I do mean just 'various descriptions'.  I have not come across an actual recipe for the making of 'Gorge-de-pigeon' glass.)


m

[flying free]

Just in case anyone anywhere is remotely interested  please see my summary post above.

but for now,
Going back to the issue raised by Oldglassman in an earlier reply #36:

1) if we go to the Hermitage search facility for "Gold Ruby Glass" we will along with the examples you quote also find these,
http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/portal/hermitage/digital-collection/08.+Applied+Arts/990314/?lng=en
and , 
2)  http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/portal/hermitage/digital-collection/08.+Applied+Arts/802804/?lng=en

both clearly described as Gold Ruby Glass , in fact they are  " gorge de pigeon "  French glass
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/23557/lot/137/

See also my replies #46 and #62

1) In relation to the bowl item link
http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/portal/hermitage/digital-collection/08.+Applied+Arts/990314/?lng=en
 where the Hermitage have that bowl listed as Russian and where Bonhams have cited Darnis (2014) as a reference for their version (different to the one in the Hermitage) being French:

It is possible the confusion over that Gorge-de-pigeon bowl in the Hermitage has arisen because of the following:
This red glass bowl is in the Hermitage also listed as Russian and dates given as early 1800s:
http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/portal/hermitage/digital-collection/08.+Applied+Arts/802709/?lng=en

It has birds on the bronze mount, although they are different to the birds on the Gorge-de-pigeon piece.
It is a red glass described as gold "ruby" glass.
It also has cutting on the red glass which is very similar in appearance to that on this vase also listed as Russian and  gold ruby glass with dates given 1810-1820s:
http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/portal/hermitage/digital-collection/08.+Applied+Arts/802708/?lng=en

So it may be an error by the Hermitage:
- Perhaps the red glass can indeed be identified as Russian and then the next step has been identifying the 'Gorge-de-pigeon' bowl as also Russian because it has bird handles as well?
- Perhaps that was a wrong conclusion?
Certainly the birds look similar but without examining them minutely,they do appear to have different tails. 
- Also, using mounts to identify the origin of a piece of glass is not a good idea (Faberge made mounts for Galle glass - that doesn't make the glass Russian for example).  Mounts can be made anywhere.

So as I say it is possible, especially looking at the bowls attributed to Bercy in the Darnis book, that the Hermitage may have mistakenly mis-identified this item ...
...although it should be noted that in their sale given on the link in #36, Bonhams have also made reference to the Hermitage having similar items.  Therefore it doesn't seem there is definitive evidence as yet, to make the claim that the Hermitage are wrong. 


2) Re the perfume bottle:
- I think it is not, at the moment, possible to jump to a conclusion that it is 'Gorge-de-pigeon' and therefore French. 
That would be going down the same route as ' it has bird handles like our other one therefore it is Russian'.

- The lid is not the same as other 'Gorge-de-pigeon' perfume bottles I have found. It is similar ... but it is also similar to a Faberge Purpurine glass handle. 
- The glass is similar to a possible Bohemian perfume bottle seen on this Glass Message Board:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=53466.0;attach=134984;image

http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,53466.msg303506.html#msg303506

I think the perfume bottle is still in abeyance as to who and where it might have been made.

m

[flying free]

This book may possibly be what we are looking for?
Google boooks: L'âge d'or du verre en France, 1800-1830
[Mod: Long link converted to clickable text]

L'âge d'or du verre en France, 1800-1830: verreries de l'Empire et de la Restauration
Fernando Montes de Oca  2001 page 387

'Writing in 1825, while opalinee was very fashionable a man of trades indicated how to get the colors called pink, pink hydrangea, pink purplish, ruby is called nowadays gorge-de-pigeon 'De color or purple precipitate of Cassius. It is of gold and tin..'

That is the only text I could get from google snippets.  I don't have the book.  But possibly someone can find something in French.  My French searching for chemical glass recipes  is rubbish.

I have no idea what the whole text will be or whether it will reference a contemporary (early 1800) reference.  But as per the information in the Darnis book it mentions 'Gorge-de-pigeon' being made with with Cassius precipitate and tin.  These are what are used for 'gold-ruby' glass as far as I can tell from some of the scientific references I've been reading.

Original text


‘Ecrivant en 1825, alors que l'opalinee etait tres a la mode une homme de metiers indiqua comment obtenir les couleurs dites rose, rose hortensia, rose violace,rubis qu'on appelle de nos jours gorge-de-pigeon: 'De la couleur pourpre ou precipite de Cassius. C'est d l'or et d'etain …’

[flying free]

I have started a thread here on ruby glass in the Rosenborg Palace collection.  It has some interest for this thread.

http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,60986.msg352509.html#msg352509
m

[flying free]

Ivo, I cannot find a recipe but I have come across a forum.
And on that forum someone has retyped an entire (many many paragraphs) and a whole description of:
Le Verre Opalins; (where this section appears to be describing 18th and 17th century white opaline (or opaque) 'milchglas'or 'lattimo' type glass
Le Cristal; (where this describes the advent of crystal glass and how lead came to be used in French glass)
Les Opalines de Cristal;(where opalines were made with lead crystal and where it appears to be discussing 19th century opaline glass made using lead crystal).
I do not know where they have lifted the information from (if it has been lifted?)

but under the section on Cristal, at the end of the section directly before it goes into Les Opalines de Cristal,
it says the following (translated using google):

'Since the crystal is well controlled, why do not try to opaque and colored by applying the old methods used for opal glasses? The crystal will give the opaline acclaim, making it a luxury product. It allows him to acquire a '' weight 'and' sound 'and' flicker 'that has never had the finest glass of milk. When and where did the first crystal opal, c is hard to say, because they are neither signed nor dated. Probably at the end of the eighteenth or the early years of the XIX.
In the early nineteenth arise wonderful pink opaline '' gorge-de-pigeon ", due to the composition employed by the Bohemian glassmakers for ruby ​​glass, a mixture of two solutions, one tin and one of gold in aqua regia (mixture of nitric acid and hydrochloric acid). the turquoise, due to the copper oxide, just slightly later.'


It is not a recipe and I don't know from whence the information originates.  It might just be repeating other information, and I guess until we get a Bercy(?) recipe for gorge de pigeon, or a source with a source, then it's not a definitive. 
However, I am speculating that 'gorge de pigeon' is made with gold ruby glass and the addition of tin.
And 'gorge-de-pigeon' glass was made prior to 1835.

[Ivo]

A tiny quantity of purple of cassius (i.e. dissolved gold) makes cranberry glass . Add an opacifyer like tin and you get a semitranslucent cranberry, or gorge de pigeon. So there are only 2 main additives to the batch and there is no telling the quantities.

I think the text is from "les opalines"

[flying free]

A tiny quantity of purple of cassius (i.e. dissolved gold) makes cranberry glass . Add an opacifyer like tin and you get a semitranslucent cranberry, or gorge de pigeon. So there are only 2 main additives to the batch and there is no telling the quantities.

I think the text is from "les opalines"

Thank you Ivo.

As far as I can tell from my reading, 'gold-ruby' glass is made the same way i.e. with dissolved gold and an addition of tin.

So the only difference i can see between the two might be the the quantities of each of the dissolved gold and the tin.

If this is the case, then I believe this would answer my question 2) (see quote below) as yes.

I am a bit clearer on trying to explain what I mean now so hopefully it is not as confusing.

I am trying to get to the bottom of two questions:

1) Was 'gold ruby' glass produced between 1740 and 1835? 

I ask this question because it has been stated on this thread that 'gold ruby' glass was not produced again after 'around 1740' until it was 're-discovered by Pohl in 1835'.  (Reference for this assertion - The Glass of Alchemists 2008)

I have disagreed with this dateline and said it is too prescriptive. 



2) Is 'Gorge-de-pigeon' glass produced between c. 1810-1830s  (dates given from museums and books references) actually 'gold ruby' glass?

m

Which would mean also:

- with the datelines given for the production of some 'Gorge-de-pigeon' glass pieces as early as c.1810, this would be another reference for 'gold ruby' glass being produced prior to c.1835.

And
- it is probable the Hermitage  have all their 'gorge-de-pigeon' items correctly listed as 'gold ruby' glass. 


If this is a correct supposition it would lead me to question:
If the French knew how to produce 'gorge-de-pigeon' glass using the 'gold-ruby' method, then perhaps all those other items from Bohemia and Russia dated prior to 1835 and identified as 'gold-ruby', are also correctly identified?

m

[Ivo]

It is not just about ingredients but about quantities and cooking times and temperatures. Knowing that a cake contains butter, flower, sugar and salt will not help you bake one. Likewise, the knowledge that some ruby reds contain gold does not mean you can, actually, make ruby red.  Or cranberry....

[flying free]

yes I understand.
However, I think it raises enough query to support my view that the timeline of stating
 'no 'gold-ruby' was produced between c.1740 and c.1835 when Pohl re-invented it'  is too prescriptive.
m

[flying free]

Mergl J., From Neuwelt to the Whole World:
pp67

'The exclusive, prestigious character of the objects made of compound ruby glass is attested to by the orders for flacons with silver stoppers in ruby glass that were made in the autumn of 1826 by the Vienna Harrach Warehouse for the wife of Count Harrach, the Princess of Liechtenstein; it is clear that the technologicaly demanding and probably very expensive ruby-compound items were only produced for the most honoured customers.'



In addition to this,in the preceding paragraphs, there is a description of a gold-ruby beaker  dated as:
'It is the use of this particular detail - as Jarmila Brosova has established - that proves the Neuwelt origin of this object and approximately dates it to around the year 1825'.

I think that brings the date forward to at the least 1826 for Harrach production of gold-ruby glass.

sorry, it's taken me a while to find the script because of distractions and because the index of the book doesn't cover things such as 'gold-ruby' or such.

m