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Author Topic: Discussion: How to age glass  (Read 1537 times)

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Offline Beege

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Discussion: How to age glass
« on: July 03, 2017, 09:10:44 PM »
Good evening all.
As my interest grows with regards to glass, I recognise my ignorance becomes more poignant
I acknowledge that my question may be 'old hat' to most of you; so please tolerate this ignorance for a little while.
Can somebody provide me with a view on how one can ascertain the age of glass? whilst I realise that ancient glass is probably identifiable by quality, crudeness of process etc, are there some 'rules of thumb' which can assist with dating contemporary glass.
Take the two glasses in the picture below. I purchased these simply because they are very aesthetic pleasing and are both very tactile when sipping wine (I suspect the one on the right is a charger), yet there is no obvious way (to me) to identify one is older than the other.
Can somebody help in my education?
Many thanks.

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Offline chopin-liszt

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Re: Discussion: How to age glass
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2017, 01:30:43 PM »
These are glasses, not glass in general, so the "rules of thumb" might be different to glass in general. ;D
However, I suspect from looking at the heat finished rims and the very ordinary feet, neither of these have much age, although I suspect the one on the left might be crystal, the other glass, it looks very machine made.

We do have a real expert on very old drinking glasses here, oldglassman.
For a whole load of interesting reading, browse his posting history. :)

One thing to look for is age-related wear around the base.
Sometimes, it's not easy to find. If the piece sits on a very small, thin area of glass, the wear can be pretty microscopic.
To find it, run your fingernail around the place it sits on, you should be able to feel the slight roughness.

Older glass will likely have more flaws than newer, look for little bits of frit or the odd tiny bubble in the glass, and don't worry about them being "seconds"!
Please, ask more questions.
Questions help to define what sort of answers you'll get, and stimulate more discussion on this useful subject. :)
Cheers, Sue M. (she/her)

Earth without art is just eh.

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Offline Fuhrman Glass

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Re: Discussion: How to age glass
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2017, 02:51:50 PM »
Many pieces of older glass will have minute "tool marks" in or on them. After you have seen production methods of off hand blown items, mold blown items, and machine made items, you can get a little better understanding of how it was produced and possibly in what time frame it was made. Much as it is in many other art materials, such as stone, ceramics, metal, etc. there are fakes and reproductions of items and some may look exactly like the originals because of their production techniques and material content. If you have the opportunity, go take a few classes in glassblowing and you'll get a better understanding of what different types of production can express as to the finished product such as the difference between working from iron molds, wood molds, paste molds, and ceramic molds. IMO: The more you think you know about it, the more you find out you don't. But it certainly is fun and addictive.

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Discussion: How to age glass
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2017, 06:58:04 PM »
all the aforesaid is very valid  ..............    nothing is 'old hat here' - you should read some of the arguments/debates we've had as to whether something is mid C18 or mid to late C19 - some pieces almost defy definitive dating, especially when viewed on the screen only.        On genuine pieces, these two time frames, in the main, show very different fashion, style, and working of the glass.        The former period tends to have much originality in terms of design - then the Victorians came along and the rest is history.         However, there are some very desirable pieces from the C19 - rummers are a good example.               Bet one thing you do discover is that on much older pieces there is that almost indefinable something that speaks to you and says 'I'm old' ;D

unfortunately, everything has been copied  -   shape, seeds, bubbles, snapped scars, ground/polished depression under the feet, striations etc., but possibly less copied aspects might be colour and type of metal, but neither is infallible.

Pictures, or actual pieces, are far better than a thousand words  -  so go out and visit antiques shops, fairs, dealers, anywhere you can (safely)handle C18 and C19 glass, and look at the difference between 250 years and 130 years  -  you will never learn this looking only at books.
If you like drinking glasses, then you need the Antique Collectors Club 'Eighteenth Century Drinking Glasses' by Bickerton, if for no other reason than to see shapes and fashion.       

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Offline Beege

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Re: Discussion: How to age glass
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2017, 08:52:06 PM »
Sue, Furhman and Paul,
Thank you so much for your input: clearly we're talking a big subject here and your clues help me take a tentative step forward.
Couple of side questions:
Sue, what is you see which made you think the left glass is crystal? It certainly feels 'finer' than the other and has a beautiful tone when gently tapped.
I have had, for some time, another nice, plain drinking glass which I think is crystal with a square base - I've never seen another...is this 'cos I'm simply not noticing or are square bases not common?
Many thanks for your help with my questions.
Lionel.

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Discussion: How to age glass
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2017, 09:39:11 PM »
gosh, can't you hear the waiting with baited breath  ..............   whenever you like Sue  ;) :-* :-*

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Offline chopin-liszt

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Re: Discussion: How to age glass
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2017, 10:46:38 AM »
It looks hand blown, not machine made and it's a lot bluer than the other glass.
The knop on the stem supports the hand made notion - and it's a very normal shape for a crystal glass, while the other has a sort of rim under the foot, machine made and it's more yellowy in colour.
Cheers, Sue M. (she/her)

Earth without art is just eh.

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Discussion: How to age glass
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2017, 02:33:30 PM »
have to show my ignorance and admit to not seeing any 'blue' - I'm also unfamiliar with the expression 'charger' when speaking of drinking glasses, although I'm well aware of the expression 'let's charge our glasses.... and drink  ..... etc.",  when raising our glass to make a toast etc.
There is some terminology from the C17 - C18 where the word 'bumper' was used  -  as in 'a bumper of champagne' - and always possible that may have referred to some particular quantity of champers in a large glass.           I'm aware of using the word charger when speaking of a large diameter glass/ceramic dish or plate.

The word crystal seems to get much over use  -  it may be perceived as simply the equivalent of the word 'clear' - so anything in clear glass is termed crystal.         I suspect the word has its origins in the Italian word cristallo - something from the Venetian glass makers vocabulary when they knocked out soda glass a long way back, which without a decolourant came out with a dirty straw-like or smoky colour, but when they added manganese became clear, and reminded them, apparently, of rock crystal.
If a glass bowl rings very well when flicked, then it's probably lead glass  -  anything from 24% to 34% of oxide in the batch (labels showing 'full lead crystal')  -  lead glass also mostly shows as a slight bluish/greyish hue in the glass - but a pure long tone ring is mostly the giveaway.          Some large bowls will ring simply because of their shape, but there is a difference in sound.
As a general rule, the more the glass has a yellow tinge then the less lead - or none - and the more of a greyish/blue tinge then a higher lead content.     Lead glass also heavier than soda glass.
Glass containing some lead oxide content often referred to as flint glass - originally, as English flints used as the silica base, rather than sand or Venetian pebbles.............   I could be wrong, but now unlikely that any glass maker uses flints.
Without boring the pants off everyone, just to say that Peter (oldglassman) has previously commented that the most reliable method to test for lead content is by use of uv light (blacklight) .......  soda glass fluorescing yellowish, sometimes vividly  .........   lead glass will show as bluey grey, and more so the higher the oxide content.

Outside of rummers, I don't think the Brits. seem to have favoured square feet.    They do occur on British rummers from c. 1790, quite possibly as a stabilizing feature on what were often quite substantial sized glasses, but they look to have suffered a demise about the same time as George III.            In the U.K. they're found commonly on C18 and early C19 sweetmeats and related large pieces but as for drinking glasses it's likely that square feet were almost exclusively a feature of Continental drinking glasses.
Show us a picture please, if possible, of your square footed glass, and we'll see if possible to suggest an origin and date.

Whether one or both of these is hand made should be easy to determine, depending on such things as striations on the bowl, a pontil scar under the foot, and a general lack of perfect symmetry, and age too.          Feet can often tell more about the nature of a drinking glass than almost any other part of the glass, and when showing drinking glasses here it's very helpful to show a picture of the underside of the foot.  :)

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Offline Beege

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Re: Discussion: How to age glass
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2017, 08:49:23 PM »
Thanks again Sue and Paul with some really useful information...you are both much appreciated.

As suggested Paul, I've attached some images of the glass with a square base...which also has a lovely 'ring' to it,

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Discussion: How to age glass
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2017, 10:04:19 PM »
sorry, never seen anything quite like that  -  that foot looks too small for comfort, and wouldn't take much to knock it over.        I was assuming we were going to see something conventional, and larger.            regret can't help, let's hope someone else has an answer for you.   Perhaps you might quickly edit your post and add the height  - it won't help with id, but helps to add interest.

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