Topic: Very old blue coffee mug

[BlueOctopus]

hello, this is going to be my firts post and I´m from germany so please don´t wonder about mistakes and funny writing stile. Years ago I bought this old mug on the fleemarket. I took it because it was so funny out of shape. At home, washings layers of dirt away, I recognized that this is glass not porcellaine. 
I think it is 1850 or older. What do you think? It is very thin and as I said out of shape, the star in the bottom is not centered and all the rest as well.
I´m looking foward to your input, if there is anybody having an idea of age and from where it might be
Monika

[Paul S.]

hello Monika - welcome to the GMB              Regret I'm not an expert on 'old' coffee mugs , so unable to say if this one is genuinely c. 1850 or older, as you suggest ……………………..   so what might we say about this piece?

The style and method of the way in which the handle has been applied looks to suggest pre 1860 (this handle has the appearance of a 'strap handle'), and the vertical flutes (the moulded lines around the lower part of the mug) is also a form of decoration that might tie in with that approximate date, and the internal decoration of the star, and something else I can't see, was a C19 habit - so that too might help to confirm the age you suggest.         Is the decoration a form of white enamel  -  can't quite see from your images - which, otherwise, are very good.            So is your English  -  if my Deutsch was as good as your English I'd be very happy.
My humble opinion is that this was not designed for coffee  -  we forget that habits and fashions change - and in the C19 coffee was drunk from what - in English - would have been called 'coffee cans', rather than mugs.            Handles are also known to have been applied to tumblers later than the date of original manufacture, thus turning a piece into a mug/tankard  -  I'm not saying this has happened to your piece, but often we are in the dark as to the degree of change of use that some pieces experience.

We see almost nothing on this forum like your 'piece', so have little with which to make a comparison, and provide you with verification of your suggestions.
My thoughts are that assuming there is the sort of wear that might be expected from something made in the middle of the C19, or earlier, then you may well have a genuine 'period' piece, and a scarce item at that  -  don't drop it, or even use it.

Hopefully, others here will come up with some really useful information for you - fingers crossed.               As a matter of interest, what makes you suggest the date of '1850 or older' - and may we ask please that you let us have some indication of height - thanks. 

[Lustrousstone]

I think it's a spa glass; the space is for the name of the spa. It's certainly very unusual

[flying free]

It's gorgeous.

When you hold it to the light does it glow a reddish colour at all? 
It's a type of blue glass and decoration I have been investigating and researching for a good few years now.
The conclusion I've come to for my piece is that I believe it is Bohemian (Umgebung Haida )- and c.1820-30 (ref- Das Bohemische Glas , seite 35,11.31 Deckedose). Mine is not a box but a perfume bottle.

For yours, the key might be the shape which may or may not date it later than mine. I think yours might date to a similar period i.e. early 1800s (1820-1830) but I can't say for sure.
 Also the decoration on yours is less detailed and single colour white and a little less precise than the decoration on mine and on the reference sources in that book. Mine is very similar to that source reference and others of that period in style and colours used.
But I think yours is possibly Bohemian.  Possibly from a similar area.
I like the star base. It reminds me of those used for piano insulators for some reason. 
I wonder if yours was blown into a mold to make the groove pattern and the star base?   The box in the reference also has grooves in it - different to yours, more like ribs made to form a bulbous shape in and out around the box and lid but not a dissimilar idea to the grooves on your becher.

There is a cup in a saucer on page 32 of the same reference source. Completely different decoration and colour but it seems to be a straight sided cup, not dissimilar to your becher and appears to have the handle applied top down as well. It also dates to 1825-1830.

From what I read from Walter Spiegl there were many companies making blue opaline/opaque glass in the 1800s.  I'm not sure it's possible to pin it down to a specific company.

m

[BlueOctopus]

Hello Paul
Thank you for your long and nice answer. You asked for sizes, I Don´t have a inch ruler, so I only can give you cm . nearly 9 cm high and 7,5 cm wide. That is in germany a normal size of a coffee mug, near by 250 ml.
I will tell you a little more about this piece.

I´m a fleemarket hunter and surching for old and nice glasses, only with little money, because there is not more . So far I remember I gave less than 1€ for it. I bought it because it was so poore and dirty, I thought you little poor thing, I will give you a new life in my kitchen. In the beginning I had coffee and tea, but the star on the bottom was so hard to clean, so it had its place in the bac of the cupboard. This a is a couple of years ago and I began to see glasses with other eyes and started to think about it.

You asked why I think 1850 and older... first off all a feeling. It is so unequal and unperferct. I have a lot of very old glasses, the oldest are all medicine bottles and flaskes, they all are unperfect and not centered. That made me feel that this is may be as old as these bottles. And the blue colour you quite often see in mid century glas of the 19C, but then mostly pressed glas.

4 weeks ago I got in contact with Pamela Wessendorf and visited her in her glas pavillion, one of the  best appointments I ever had. I asked her if I can bring some glas pieces, and so we spend hours with my and her glas. And she was quite astonished about this mug. She was the one who told me to get a member GMB and show this to you.

the suggestion that this might be a spa glas makes sence to me. Pamela Wessendorf thought that this might out of the Bavarian area of Germany, that might be wright as well, because blue and white is typical bavarian.

So this now going from the kitchen cupboard to the collection and will never see tea or coffee again, only water for getting the dust away.

[flying free]

In addition to my reply above, on page 76 of Das Bohmische Glas band II there is a reference table with coloured drawings in it from J. F. Romisch, Steinschonau  1832.  The decoration on your becher is very similar to a vase shown on that series of paintings (design ideas).  I think Romisch painted a series of works and decorators could use this to follow iirc. 

[BlueOctopus]

hello again, that is super to get such a lot response. 

Yes it glows a little bit reddish at the edges of the star. I´m pretty sure that this is mold blown an then turned around and pressed the the star into the (Abriss.. sorry i don´t know the english word... something with pointil??) to hide it , not to flatten ore polish it. You see the the edges of the star are very sharp, sharper as everything els of this becher. And that is the reason because it is not centered, it is hot and you have to be qick to make the star, then you can miss the center.

1820-1830 wow that is old,and thinking what happened this poor little thing  over all this years without getting any chip or crack.....

I`ll will see if i get this book , to have a look, first off all, thank you 

[flying free]

It is a fabulous book ( band II ) from a series of the books (band  1 to Band VII if I remember right).

In German and if you like glass from that period about 1815 - 1850 then it's a perfect read

m

[Paul S.]

good to see that you have some positive help with this one Monika.               As I understand it, the fire/glow from edges suggests some quantity of phosphate added to the glass batch at the time of manufacture - it gives those thinner edges of the glass a slightly opalescent appearance.

m - I like a perfect read  -  but im Deutsch is going to be difficult         Any idea as to the cost of these volumes?

[flying free]

Expensive but worth it in this instance because this is a period and country of glass collecting that I am most interested in    My reading of German has improved dramatically over the years - at least when it concerns glass research, nothing else of course and my speaking is non existent.  Czech remains a complete puzzle to me though even though I research stuff in Czech.  I rarely even recognise a single word and it makes researching it very difficult.