Topic: centerpiece with dolphins... french or bohemian?

[flying free]

They do, but no indication as to where the dolphin was pressed or by which glasshouse.
Harrach was a massive glassmaker.  It exported chandelier parts for one example, to the UK (Osler) that I've read about.
Also, as far as I recall, it says in the book they didn't make complete chandeliers but did make the parts.

I'm not saying the dolphins on the bowls is definitely Harrach. We don't know that yet.  But it's important to keep an open mind as these were 'parts' like chandelier droplets etc, which could be exported and added to any design.

As an example, not for the first time,I've recently in the last couple of days seen an important piece of glass from that era (1830s/40s) listed as by an English maker when I know it was actually produced by Harrach.  The last time was an important, very expensive vase sold by one of the  big Auction Houses.

[Ekimp]

I came across this post of yours, Flying free: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,60747.msg342587.html#msg342587

I looked it up and in Broadfield House collection there are two bowls on dolphin stands, identified as Richardson's
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_ST239/

and here with the frosted dolphin

http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_BH2136b/

The single dolphin on the first bowl looks like a closer match than any of the other examples on the links in this thread, when comparing curve of the tail and size and position of fins etc. I think there might be very subtle differences in some detail of the modelling - such as lines around the eye - but it’s hard to tell.

[flying free]

Yes, that one is interesting.  I've never been able to find any more information on that picture/plate in the book which shows the dolphin tazza, as to where that tazza was shown/pattern number reference or anything.  I couldn't see any more information in the book on it either.  It is however a large and detailed book so I may have missed it.  But from the caption under the plate it does not seem to specifically state it's Richardson's although it comes under the chapter' The Richardson Dynasty' in the book.

My hesitation is also because, in that Colour Plate 10 in the book, there is  shown a dark red streaky salt cellar.  It's facet cut and to me looks very much as though it's Bohemian red hyalith glass. 
The description says 'The salt cellar matches the design illustrated in Plate 61 while the....'  Except that whichever way I position it, whilst looking at the photo of the piece in the book and comparing it to the design drawing in plate 61 I cannot see it matches the design in Plate 61.  So I have been wondering whether it's actually Bohemian red hyalith.


And yes, I can see the dolphins in that tazza look similar to the OP's dolphins.  My questioning in my head has been over the intervening years, is the red tazza with the dolphins which appears under the Richardson Dynasty section in the book, actually a Bohemian piece?

Awkward  . I don't have the experience or breadth of knowledge, or authority to question really.  However there's something about both those pieces that doesn't sit right at the moment.  Probably it's just lack of evidence and I'm wrongly questioning them.  But maybe they are Bohemian?


And you can see why I was questioning in that thread link you gave:
Because the dolphins on the bowl in the book and linked to the Dudley museums collection tazza,look similar to the dolphins in the link I gave to the piece sold as Mount Washington/Moser here
http://ancientpoint.com/inf/35790-rare_19thc_victorian_cranberry_glass__figural_dolphin_vase_mt___washington_moser.html

And I'm pretty sure that piece is Bohemian.



There are only a few pieces identified as Richardson in the online Black Country glass collection.  Looking through all the pieces there are even fewer which include ruby glass to provide some form of comparison.  None of the ruby glass items are comparable to the tazzas.  In terms of the panelled gilding there is one other piece in the collection that has this vaguely similar type of decoration - a very bright green jade glass jug here:
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_ST140/

[flying free]

Further to my long post above, see the bowl on seite 92 of the attached - left hand side, similar (maybe) dolphin, gilded bands dark red.  This is probably one of the reasons why I am querying the tazza on the Black Country museums website as being Richardson.
https://pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2005-3w-kilian-bacc-delphin.pdf

[Ekimp]

I hadn’t realised the Blackcountry Tazza was the one in Hajdamach that thewingedsphinx mentioned in reply #1. (Should’ve got the book out!). The caption for Colour Plate 10 with the dolphin tazza does say at the beginning  “Colour Plate 10. Richardson glassware from the 1840s”. I thought the salt matched looking quickly but you’re right, completely different.

The dolphin in you’re link above (reply #22) sold as Mount Washington/Moser is similar to the tazza and blueoctopus’s but it looks different as it is more ‘s’ shaped. The tail looks to come further over the head and there is a tighter curve at the top of the tail and the belly fin is different. The one in reply #23 above it’s hard to tell. I wondered if it’s like your uranium becher where near identical items were being made all over. It’s hard to compare grainy images of dolphins...I’m going to be dreaming about dolphins. Which museum and publication’s attribution trumps the other’s?

In reply #17

The rim of the bowl, the way it is cut always makes me think Bohemian

but doesn’t it also resemble British designs shown in Hajdamach such as those in Plates 63 and 64 by Rice Harris? Is it the case that a rim like that is more typical on bohemian glass than British? But then the rims of the Celeries from Webb Richardson c1830s Plate 39 don’t look a million miles away either.

I have much less experience or breadth of knowledge so will leave it up to others 

[flying free]

No please keep challenging.  I'm very often wrong   
But glad you agree on that salt.

Yes I see what you mean on the Rice Harris crenellated rims especially on the vase on right of the top left hand group

Blue Octopus, where did you buy your bowl set from btw?  Which country please?

[BlueOctopus]

Hello you Both, it is to late and I‘m too tired  to understand your postings in detail. But I‘m not too tired to answer: I‘m German and I bought it in Germany, south Germany.
And... very seldem english glass found it way to Germany, but you find a lot of bohemia glass.
I‘m proud that this centerpiece is triggering so many discussions. I‘m looking forward to get the Harrach book.

[BlueOctopus]

Hello again

I got the Harrach ( from Neuwelt to the whole world) book now, absolutely worth the money. I´m more and more convinced that we are on the right track.

Now I took my heart into my hands and surched for Jan Mergl email adress and the contact to Harrach itself. I think I found them both and wrote an email to both, looking forward if one will answer.

Cross your fingers
Monika

[flying free]

Your dolphin exactly the same,  is shown in the Passau book DAs Bohmische Glass 1700-1950 band III Historismus on page 148 plate lll. 195 Obstschale mit Delphin

I'd as Neuwelt (that is Harrach) 1860-1870 .
It is shown supporting an 'ice glass effect' crackled bowl on an 'ice glass effect' crackled foot.  So it's a different bowl and foot glass effect to yours but the Delphin is the same.

It says
quote:
 '...Vollplastischer gepresster Delphin, uberschliffen und mattiert....'

Then also
quote:
'Die Delphinplastik ist in den "Fakturenbuchern" zum erstenmal am 27.11.1840, S. 264, verzeichnet. Noch in den siebziger Jahren findet man sie hier, zusammen mit plastischen Schwanen, als Fusse fur extravagante Obstschalen. Die gepressten Glasplastiken wurden ausschliesslich von Neuwelter Glas-schneidern uberschliffen und mattiert. Namentlich bekannt ist Johann Mallin ("Glasschneiderbuch" 1865, Nr. 1029/972, S.216). - Jar.Br.'

This translates as:
'The dolphin sculpture is recorded in the "Invoicing Books" for the first time on November 27, 1840, p. 264. You can still find them here in the seventies, together with plastic swans, as feet for extravagant fruit bowls. The pressed glass sculptures were sanded and matted exclusively by Neuwelter glass cutters. Johann Mallin is known by name ("Glasschneiderbuch" 1865, No. 1029/972, p.216). - Jar.Br. '

[flying free]

see my post above - re your bowl, if it were mine I would be thinking it was much earlier than 1860s70s.  It has a Biedermeier look which would put it 1850 or before as my point of searching for a match.  I'm always open to correction   just saying, that is where my instinct would make me start searching.