Topic: Thomas Webb Webb's Alexandrite v. New England Amberina 19th c.

[flying free]

I'm curious.  I've read through all the lengthy threads on here and been doing some research.

This links to an item on Scottish Glass which is already sold so I hope that's ok?
There are experts on that site so it feels a bit odd querying it but I do have a good reason (research).

I'm not sure this bowl is Alexandrite.  Anyone like to chip in? 

I might have thought it was New England Glass Amberina.  From what I've seen/read it did come with a fuchsia to amber colourway as well as the red to amber I automatically think of when I hear Amberina.
 I've read up on New England Glass Company Amberina (invented by Joseph Locke) and I think 'some' of it was marked but I don't think I've read that it was always marked.  From what I can make out NEGC became Libbey and they also produced Amberina but they marked their pieces.
Example here of New England Glass company Amberina bowl :
http://www.glassclub.org/amberina.jpg

This piece isn't marked presumably:

https://scottishantiques.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=18690

Two similar bowls are on ebay:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/253187699067?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338722076&toolid=10001

[Paul S.]

Hi - when I hit on the glassclub link I get - Forbidden - you don't have permission to access this information.    Anyone else have this problem?

[flying free]

should appear on this link of thumbnails then, third row down?

http://www.glassclub.org/thumb2.htm

There are two items with a similar colourway here - both marked Libbey so later examples than New England Glass Co examples:
https://brunkauctions.com/lot/two-libbey-amberina-glass-bud-vases-4064455

[Paul S.]

thanks - all now o.k.  -  so now we know the origin of the handkerchief vase.                    Alexandrite not something I can offer first hand knowledge of at all  -  other than to say that the ten pieces of Webb's Alexandrite sold at Christie's  - 1997/98  -  ex the Michael Parkington collection - seem to have varied in the intensity of re-struck colour  -  this may have simply been the result of differences in re-striking (twice apparently with Alexandrite) or simply varying photographic issues.              The date of manufacture of the handkerchief bowl here and the Parkington pieces is the same - c. 1900.          Likewise the single piece shown in Hajdamach, which has that violet/blue colour - and it's this latter appearance that seems to be the hallmark of Alexandrite.       
It would help with special pieces if there was some form of provenance offered as to origin.

Might help if you can be more precise and say exactly where you consider the bowl in the link differs from, say, Hajdamach and Parkington or why you have issues  -  I too feel uncertain about the linked bowl when compared to Hajdamach and Parkington.

         

[glassobsessed]

Would agree not Webb alexandrite, at least going by the description, it does not meet the criteria. Not sure it would qualify as dichroic either.

For anyone who wants to see some Webb alexandrite there are several examples in this thread: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,51070.0.html

There may be experts associated with SA but they are prone to at best wishful thinking, they have a couple of contemporary Chinese glass items with one being offered as vintage Murano. I could only be bothered to check under two of their categories, there may be more.

John

[flying free]

Thanks John.

Paul, the Scottish Glass link shows a bowl with undulating loosely crimped rim that grades fuchsia pink at top to amber at bottom.
I don't even with careful squinting, see any violet or blue which I do see in all the Webb Alexandrite pieces that come up on google search if you put Webb Alexandrite glass in google search and then click on images.  That bowl stands out as being completely different.

I also don't necessarily associate that shape with Thomas Webb.  I know though it's a kind of catch all 'Victorian' shape and that pincering and crimping rims was in vogue then, so it's not specifically the shape that put me off.

On ebay however I also see a pair of bowls the same shape as that one on Scottish Glass, also with pink to amber grading, and described as New England Glass Company Amberina.
I don't know for sure that the ebay seller has the correct identification either but if they were Libbey I think they would be marked. 
I think SOME New England Glass Company amberina was marked. The seller doesn't mention a  mark so I'm assuming they are unmarked.

I'm asking because I'm researching a bowl I have in this colourway.  It's not this shape.  It does have a shape I might associate with Thomas Webb but haven't been able to.  I have however been able to  associate it  partly with Stevens and Williams so therefore I thought it could well be a Thomas Webb shape as well.

I think Mount Washington and then Pairpoint also made 'Amberina' glass however I can't see any that appears in this fuschia pink to amber so I've discounted them just for the moment.

Date wise I'm sure I read on here that the patent for Locke's New England Glass Company Amberina and Thomas Webb Alexandrite was only days apart, with possibly Webb getting there first. 1886 if I recall correctly?
 I remember reading it because I wondered about and had searched for a link between Joseph Locke and Thomas Webb Glass. (meaning I wondered if Locke had first alerted Webb to the reheating process and gold recipe and then moved to the States and took the process with him to New England Glass company where they launched Amberina (invented by Locke apparently.  This is what I read, not that I have definitive proof of that).)  So far I've not found a link though.

[flying free]

There is some interesting information here on
https://www.glassencyclopedia.com/amberinaglass.html

1) New England Glass Co. Amberina (made from 1883 to the late 1890s - presume this means it covers the glass made by what became known as Libbey in 1888 as well).  Says these had a specially made label.
2) and on the follow-on Amberina made at  Libbey (Toledo, Ohio) -( New England Glass Co moved to Ohio in 1888 and changed name)
3) Libbey resurrected Amberina for a short time from 1917 and it says these were acid etched marked 'Amberina' and 'Libbey'.
3) the patent dispute with Mount Washington on them producing their version of 'Amberina' in the early 1880s stopping in 1886 after the dispute.
4) Hobbs, Brockunier & Co Amberina made under licence from Libbey/New England Glass (no dates so possibly straddled both company periods?) most was pressed rather than blown.

So, I'm leaning towards my piece and these unmarked pieces being by New England Glass Co. c1883-1888 date wise.
https://www.glassencyclopedia.com/amberinaglass.html

[Lustrousstone]

If it's Webb Alexandrite, it will glow bright green under UV, as it's uranium glass based. Other Alexandrites don't.

[flying free]

Thanks Christine. I had thought that from previous reading so it's good to have that confirmed. I'm waiting for my new piece to arrive so can't check it yet. Quite interested to see how it compares to my definite Webb Alexandrite vase colour wise as well.
I did wonder about the SG piece though and whether they'd checked it.

m

[flying free]

Date wise I'm sure I read on here that the patent for Locke's New England Glass Company Amberina and Thomas Webb Alexandrite was only days apart, with possibly Webb getting there first. 1886 if I recall correctly?
 I remember reading it because I wondered about and had searched for a link between Joseph Locke and Thomas Webb Glass. (meaning I wondered if Locke had first alerted Webb to the reheating process and gold recipe and then moved to the States and took the process with him to New England Glass company where they launched Amberina (invented by Locke apparently.  This is what I read, not that I have definitive proof of that).)  So far I've not found a link though.

On checking again it seems the Amberina was patented in 1883 just to correct my date memory above.  I've not double checked that date of the Alexandrite yet but I'm pretty sure it was days/weeks apart in date of being patented to the Amberina from memory.

Oddly, I've been trying to see if there was any connection between Locke (inventor of heat reactive colloidal gold Amberina reheated to get the amber to red gradation) and Thomas Webb (heat reactive colloidal gold Alexandrite twice reheated for the colours amber, pink, blue, purple with a fine brown rim).
In the book English Cameo Glass, The Corning Museum of Glass page 27 it says
'Locke left Richardson's in 1879 and
worked successively for Philip Pargeter's
Red House Glass Works and another
local firm, Webb 8c Corbett. In 1882,
however, he emigrated to the United
States, where he became an influential
figure at the New England Glass Company of East Cambridge, Massachusetts'
I'm confused.  It says in this link that Thomas Webb and Corbett was set up in 1897.  Also says it was a completely different company to Thomas Webb and Sons.
https://www.glassencyclopedia.com/Webbcorbettglass.html
So which Webb & Corbett is the Corning Book referring to?  If Locke emigrated in 1882 he couldn't have worked for Thomas Webb & Corbett which set up according to that link, in 1897.