Topic: A drinking glass for period identification

[Paul S.]

many thanks Neil for your reply  -  I think I was born a sceptic.       Handling and experience do count for a lot in this game of ours, and there is no substitute for having something in the hand to get that sense of 'rightness' that pix on the screen are unable to provide.  thanks again.

[Ekimp]

Regarding the engraving, Bickerton plate 230 shows a conical bowl, plain straight stem gin glass c.1740 with pretty much identical engraving to that on Laird’s. The quality of engraving also looks about the same from what I can see. Similar glass shown on Scottish antiques here: https://scottishantiques.com/Georgian-drinking-glasses/antique-gin-glass/?product_id=43464

Scottish antiques also have similar shapes to Laird’s dated mid 18th century for example: https://scottishantiques.com/Georgian-drinking-glasses/firing-dram-glass/port-glass-folded-foot/ and https://scottishantiques.com/Georgian-drinking-glasses/firing-dram-glass/?product_id=1011

Still not sure what makes one c.1810 and another c.1750. Laird, is the diameter of the foot larger than that of the rim?

[Laird]

Thank you Gents for sharing your knowledge. I believe you have correctly placed it in the 19th century. I have checked, and indeed this glass does not 'ping'. The foot is 5.4 cm diameter while the flared rim is 5.6 cm. Further, the glass has striations, with at least one imperfection/bubble in the bowl, and when viewed under a magnifying glass, the engraving does indeed look carelessly done.

[Ekimp]

I believe the foot being smaller diameter than the rim supports the later date.

Back to the engraving, Phelps Warren Irish Glass calls the engraving ‘bowknot and leaf-frond’ and shows it on drinking glasses and decanters that are dated c1815 or 1820. He seems to more specifically say that the motif is associated with Waterloo Co. Cork, established 1815. So Irish rather than English?

Perhaps Bickerton is incorrect in his 1740 dating of the glass shown in plate 230, he would be quite far off? Are there any references for the shape of Laird’s glass being from c1810 or later and not earlier into the 18th century?

[neil53]

I have difficulty believing that LM Bickerton would have dated the glass as 18th century.  I checked my copy of his 18th Century Drinking Glasses (Antiques Collectors Guide - 1986 second edition) and plate 230 is a long stem pan-top balustroid wine glass.  Do you have a different version of the book?  I know it was published in shorter form.  I checked through my copy (all 1200 plates) and there is no such glass in there.   Nor is there in Ward-Lloyd or Hartshorne.   Would be good to have a reference to the glass if it is in one version of Bickerton's book.  Kind regards

[Ekimp]

My book is An Illustrated Guide to Eighteenth-Century English Drinking Glasses by L M Bickerton. It doesn’t say which edition but says first published 1971 so assume a first edition? Published by Barrie & Jenkins, 854 plates.

The glass on plate 230 looks to have the same engraving as Laird’s, but different shape (drawn trumpet). It’s in the Plain Straight Stems section. Maybe it was removed from later editions and he got it wrong. That would be disappointing.

Just to add, the description of that glass says at the bottom ‘Hartshorne Collection (fig.20a)’.

[Laird]

These close ups of the engraving might be useful to the discussion - the type of tools/wheel used perhaps?

[Paul S.]

looking at the close up of the 'engraving', the appearance is similar to sand blasting  -  the way that the edges of the decoration leak slightly onto the surrounding clear glass isn't the sort of effect that the  wheel would leave.    Also I don't see any striations within the 'engraving' that a wheel would create.
However, there wasn't any sand blasting being used at the date this glass was made, so wheel engraving it has to be.

[Ekimp]

The engraving looks ok to me, in the photo of the bow, there look to be striations from the tool within the engraving going almost horizontally. The engraving is fairly coarse and shallow so hasn’t got a particularly defined edge.

Phelps Warren comments on some of the engraving of the fronds of this type “…more often lightly implied than honestly stated”. Assume that’s a polite way of saying the engraving isn’t too fancy

The photos in the book aren’t good enough to see the close detail. You could find examples online if you look up Waterloo Co. Cork glass, especially dip moulded decanters as they can have the makers name moulded into the bottom.