Topic: 17th century nipt diamond shaft and globe decanter

[freeblown]

Hi everybody,

I have an interesting decanter and was wondering if anybody else in the UK has seen one like it. I am in the USA so I am not sure how many of these are out there. It's an amethyst colored, lead glass shaft and globe shaped decanter with a half post neck and nipt diamond design. I can find reference to bottles of this type in non lead glass and being Dutch but they all have a tooled lip and therefore a pontil on the bottom whereas my bottle has a ground lip and therefore no pontil on the bottom.
I can only find one reference to another one of these bottles like mine and it is in a museum in Australia. Here is a link to it - http://www.ngv.vic.gov.au/col/work/14127
They date theirs at circa 1690 and English. The lip on theirs is clearly ground and looks just like the lip on my decanter. I also noticed that they write under "medium" glass, brass and cork yet they don't show their bottle with the presumably brass and cork stopper so I don't know if my stopper matches theirs or not. My stopper appears to be cast brass or bronze  with gold ormolu on it. There is a crown top center. Underneath the stopper there is a threaded rod to accept a cork and a hand cut square nut to hold the cork in place.So has anybody seen one of these bottles in lead glass like this? Or has anybody seen the same metal stopper on my decanter on anything else? Thanks for your input. Rob G.

[Paul S.]

Just a few thoughts Rob to start this off, and hopefully this will encourage the knowledgable people to come in.
There is a 'shaft and globe' example shown in Douglas Ash's 'English Drinking Glasses & Decanters' (1680 - 1830) - in flint (and apparently in the British Musueum - although now possibly in the V.& A), which is dated        A shorter neck than yours, and with what may be the more common(!) application of 'nipt diamond waies' - although these may well have varied in style.      The neck ring is presumably a left over from the bottles that the decanter superceded, as anchor for the string, and perhaps your eleborate brass stopper was a later addition.    The example in Ash is shown without a stopper/cork, and rests on a rim foot, although looking at your decanter, what I'm seeing suggests a standard non-footed base.   Coincidentally, it seems that the word decanter came into use in about the 1690's
According to this author, all flint decanters at this period had a 'kick' in the base (in common with serving bottles) - to provide a stable base plus somewhere to hide the pontil mark  -  although I appreciate you are saying that as your has a ground top then there won't be a pontil.
 
In Bickerton - under coloured glasses - there is a single 'purple' wine glass dated (probably by the V.& A.) to 1690 - and against which Bickerton has added an exclamation mark in brackets.        In the Georgian (British) period - 1740 plus, purple/amethyst was a not uncommon colour (now very collectible) - but how far back prior to that period it goes I don't know.              Am sure that Peter (oldglassman) might like to answer that.
You can of course contact the V.& A. museum in London, who are usually very helpful - even if you do sometimes have to wait for a week or two for the answer.

[Paul S.]

...........which is dated to about 1690.

[freeblown]

Thank you Paul.

I have written to the museum in Australia to see if my brass and cork stopper is a match to theirs. The way my bottle is finished with the finely ground lip, I feel confident it was intended for some kind of stopper besides a plain cork. I also feel my stopper is very early for I have found some similar looking examples on other late 17th century bottles from both France and Germany. Hopefully I will get some more information from the museum in AU. Maybe I'll send a picture of my bottle to the V&A as well. Thanks again for your input, Robert

[freeblown]

I have heard back from the Museum in Australia and they have provided a picture of their stopper. It is very similar to mine but theirs has a different cypher - a C next to a backwards C under the crown. My stopper has an S over a Backwards S. I think this at least shows that both these bottles have their original stoppers. Now I must try to figure out what the cypher represents and that should be able to help date the bottle more accurately. Attached is a black and white image from the Australia museum and a close up of my stopper. Anybody out there know cyphers?

[Carolyn Preston]

Could it be that the "c" and the "s" are ways of matching decanters to stoppers, like they have also done with numbers?

Carolyn

[Paul S.]

I could be very wrong, but wouldn't have thought that to be a plausible answer - there is no evidence on the body of the decanter to indicate a connection with any particular stopper  -  however, out of interest I'd be very keen to know what might be the earliest date that matching/tie Nos. were in fact introduced for decanters - I'd bet it was later than this date though.
It's possible that with this C17 neck ring (used for tying and keeping the corks in place on bottles), these ornate stoppers were made at a later date - although bearing in mind the apparent rarity of amethyst decanters maybe things like this were made just for those who possessed crests and cyphers

[freeblown]

Carolyn
[/quote]

Could it be that the "c" and the "s" are ways of matching decanters to stoppers, like they have also done with numbers?

Carolyn

I don't think so Carolyn because these stoppers are not fitted for they have a cork on the inside. Plus, the work involved to both design and cast these open work stoppers is far too great for such a purpose.

[freeblown]

I could be very wrong, but wouldn't have thought that to be a plausible answer - there is no evidence on the body of the decanter to indicate a connection with any particular stopper  -  however, out of interest I'd be very keen to know what might be the earliest date that matching/tie Nos. were in fact introduced for decanters - I'd bet it was later than this date though.
It's possible that with this C17 neck ring (used for tying and keeping the corks in place on bottles), these ornate stoppers were made at a later date - although bearing in mind the apparent rarity of amethyst decanters maybe things like this were made just for those who possessed crests and cyphers

I too though it possible my stopper was not original to my decanter when I only knew of my one decanter but when two of these rare shaft and globe decanters on opposite sides of the globe both turn up with similar and very unusual cyphered stoppers, I think the odds of these stoppers being independently married to these bottles at some later date is very very remote.

[Paul S.]

well I certainly agree with your logic Rob.