Topic: 17th century nipt diamond shaft and globe decanter

[freeblown]

Hi Peter,

I'll try to post a picture of the bottom for you in a day or two.

Yes, the V&A was aware of the ground lip, no pontil and the bottle being lead glass.

Just one more thought - if this and the other decanter in AU are reproductions then what are they reproductions of? As you say, you don't know of any done with the ground lip like this so why would they produce them in an atypical manner with a ground lip if these were supposed to be reproductions? Clearly, they could have fire polished the lip if they wanted to and made these bottles consistent with the typical shaft and globe nipt diamond bottles we are used to seeing. I think the lip was ground to make a finer quality product, consistent with the fancy ormolu cyphered stoppers that both these decanters have and that the reproduction of something was not their objective. I know of no other bottles of this type with this kind of fancy stopper. If these bottles were known with this kind of fancy ormolu cyphered stopper having a tooled lip and a pontiled base I would be more skeptical about this one and the one in AU. In my experience, reproductions do not go above and beyond the quality of the originals they are attempting to reproduce. This bottle is atypical in the fancy ormolu stopper, the lip finish and it being made from lead glass so to me this can't be a reproduction because it is just too different from the typical bottle of this type. I think if anything they may be a bit later, done some time in the 18th century perhaps. 

I was also thinking of trying to contact Andy McConnell who wrote a very good book on decanters. If these are reproductions, the odds are he has seen some of them in doing his extensive research. Was he by chance one of the people you contacted Peter?

Robert

[oldglassman]

Hi ,
         " If these bottles were known with this kind of fancy ormolu cyphered stopper having a tooled lip and a pontiled base I would be more skeptical about this one and the one in AU."

 this is an extract from the Glass in the Rijksmuseum Catalogue page 189, description is attached to what in essence is an identical bottle/decanter as yours with mount and stopper , not like yours though , the pontil mark is clearly visible through the glass which is brightly lit

A quarter of the bottles had a silveren beslach (silver mount),several others have a messink vergulde beslage (gilt bronze mount )or a "koperen vergulde dop (gilt copper stopper),

as you can see from the above the 17thc bottle are well known with decorative stoppers along the lines of yours ,

No I did not contact Andy , and i will be interrested to see what he has to say about it,

I am beginning to feel a little like the bad guy in this thread , I hope you will take my comments in the spirit that they are meant , as it is only by questioning anomaly's can you end up with answers , if the result is that I am completely wrong in my observations re pontil mark and ground rim being odd for the period , then I for one will be very pleased both for you and for me , something new to me will be learned .

Cheers ,
           Peter.

ps , I am also surprised that no other members of the forum have given any suggestions

pps  , I have just re read this , "I think if anything they may be a bit later, done some time in the 18th century perhaps."

 This is what i have been trying to say all along that it is probably a later copy of a 17thc decanter ,for all the reasons I gave ,and would go so far as say that 19thc is also a possibility ,
  so have we now got crossed wires ,  my comments all along were that it was not 17thc ??
and that the ground top would indicate continental manufacture,not English ??

[Paul S.]

re your ps Peter  -  the main reason, possibly, that other people have been backward in coming forward is that, aside from older glass not being so fashionable to collect (how many people here collect older drinking glasses for example?) - there is the very real problem that quality C17 and C18 glass costs serious money.        Working from a distance on this subject so to speak, may I come back to my earlier comments on 18/3 regarding the Bristol blue bonnet glasses etc. that are catalogued and pictured as having trellis moulded pattern (these pieces were in the Seddon collection originally).       
I hope that Robert won't think me completely tactless, but I'm still having trouble seeing his decoration as real NDW - doesn't have the physical appearance of the flint example which Peter posted, and other genuine examples I've seen in the books.        To the best of my knowledge, the original C17 NDW decoration was applied as separate threading.     Is it out of the question entirely Robert that on your example the decoration might in fact be created from a mould?
Had we established that Robert's decanter is in fact lead glass?     If it were 'flicked' Robert do you hear the lead glass 'ring'?
Have we also got round the question of whether this purple colour was being used for decanters in the latter part of the C17.

Just a personal reflection, but I'm seeing the decoration as being too neat - not the naive sort of look that came from the late C17, perhaps.

[oldglassman]

Hi Paul,
             "older glass not being so fashionable to collect"
 LOL  I know an awful lot of dedicated 17thc and 18thc collectors that would disagree with this .

"there is the very real problem that quality C17 and C18 glass costs serious money."
unfortunately yes it is a problem for some who like older glass and cant afford it ,I would like a Stradivarius , but cant afford 1  but it does not seem to be a problem as you call it for those who can .

"To the best of my knowledge, the original C17  NDW decoration was applied as separate threading."

To the best of my knowledge NDW was created on bottles with the use of a mould , the uprights then being pinched , yes you will also see on some early drinking glasses and tankards some which have moulded NDW and above that  trailed glass that has been pinched into chains , strictly speaking those nipped trails forming chains are to me  not NDW.

"Have we also got round the question of whether this purple colour was being used for decanters in the latter part of the C17."

yes decanters of this type and in this colour are well documented.

cheers ,
              Peter.

[Paul S.]

quotes from Peter............

"LOL  I know an awful lot of dedicated 17thc and 18thc collectors that would disagree with this".........that may be so outside the walls of the GMB...........but since it was the GMB that you were referring to when castigating members for not commenting, then it was of the GMB that I was speaking when suggesting that few members collected older glass           Peter, can you not persuade your affluent friends to join the GMB

"but it does not seem to be a problem as you call it for those who can"  -  rather self-evident, and blindingly obvious

In fact, I occasionally get very close to some of the most rare and desirable C16 and C17 pieces  -  trouble is they all belong to someone else, and there is a rather thick sheet of glass between them and me........I'm speaking of the V.& A. as you might guess, and I do get there every 6 - 8 weeks just to drool and lament my inadequate circumstances.
Of course, I would defer to your judgment on this sort of material any day Peter, and thanks for the corrections  -  and can we assume that in view of your most recent appraisal of the later date for this piece, then correctly should we not call Robert's decoration NDW  -  or am I wrong again, and it's o.k. to continue to do so?

Paul S.

[oldglassman]

HI Paul,
                  "castigating members for not commenting"
 No castigation intended just surprise there seems to be no other members with an interrest in 17th c glass,be they collectors/dealers /researchers.

"and can we assume that in view of your most recent appraisal of the later date for this piece,"

 Sorry Paul but it has been my thought from my first post that this decanter is not 17thc, which was the original Post query.

I see no reason why this decanter does not have NDW even if a revival piece , the way it was produced with a mould and nipped is the same whenever it was done , the difference with this 1 is the lack of pontil and cut top rim , so yes I would say it had NDW, A bit like a multispiral air twist made by Stuarts in the 20thc, a copy of an 18thc style  is still a multispiral airtwist.

I envy your ability to get to the V&A so regularly,that's a real treat , however next time you visit look in there cabinet of "Fakes" and see if you can spot something that is illustrated in Bless , a very very rare glass !!!!!!??, lol  but that's another story .

cheers ,
               Peter.

[freeblown]

Sorry Paul but it has been my thought from my first post that this decanter is not 17thc, which was the original Post query.

Actually the original question was just if anybody has seen these decanters in lead glass with a ground lip or if anybody has seen this particular kind of stopper on anything else.

"So has anybody seen one of these bottles in lead glass like this? Or has anybody seen the same metal stopper on my decanter on anything else? "

So I guess the answer is no.

[oldglassman]

 "Actually the original question was just if anybody has seen these decanters in lead glass with a ground lip"

  with this title to the post ,  " Re: 17th century nipt diamond shaft and globe decanter".on which i based my responses.

Peter.

[Paul S.]

Peter  -  assume you referring to Joseph Bles "Rare English Glasses of the C17 and C18" - published (Boston - Mass.) 1925  -  is there a modern reprint do you know.       Not one I have  -  no matter how many books I have, it always seems there is another one that I need   thanks

[oldglassman]

HI Paul ,
               Yes that's the one ,unfortunately there is not a modern reprint , originally there were 750 printed for the UK market and 150 allocated to the US market,also 100 leather bound deluxe editions, not sure though if both the UK editions and the US editions were printed in the US or here,but essentially they are the same ,a very large book with some wonderful treasures in it , prices vary a lot depending on condition and which version , the deluxe of course costing the most ,

Cheers ,
                Peter.