Topic: pressed tumblers & goblets

[Paul S.]

thanks Fred  -  as always, a wonderful contribution to the Board's archive for these C19 pressed glass manufacturers/agents/importers  -  to which I really can't think of anything original to add.              Will add some more designs in the coming days.

[Paul S.]

and some more from 1866 and 1868 ……………..

one  ……  Reg. 204182 dated 28.11.1866  -  Michael & Lewis Beck, London.
                        Unfortunately, another name about which I know nothing, but suspect they were importers, wholesalers or agents, rather than
                        manufacturers. 
                        What is intriguing on this one are the initials J.D. & Bro. which can be seen in the lower left hand corner of the original factory
                        drawing, attached  -  so might this have been an item made by James Derbyshire & Bro. specifically for Michael & Lewis Beck?

two …….  Reg. 218486 dated 29.04.1868  -  Kerr Webb & Co., Manchester - am sure the spelling of 'Ker' in Ray Slack's book is in error
                        (which he appears to repeat for all Registrations for K & W.)  -  doubtless he was mislead by the equally incorrect spelling sent
                        to the BoT, and which can be seen on the original factory drawing shown below.
                        Anything relating to C19 glass production, and involving the name Webb, has the potential to be very confusing  -  the 'Webb
                        dynasty' was very long lived - from the dying days of the Regency until well into the C20 - and their connection with the
                        Richardson's and Andrew Kerr makes for interesting reading  -  see Hajdamach and Gulliver for dates and some company
                        history.
                        Andrew Kerr was certainly trading from Prussia Street Flint Glass Works (Manchester), in the late 1870s, though whether on his
                        own or not I'm unsure.      Certainly if you read the interesting extract Neil posted some time back   ..
                        https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,35645.msg193464.html#msg193464  …..   
                        the litigation being discussed with Kerr and Webb against Percival Vickers in 1871, appears to show that Andrew Kerr and     
                        Thomas Webb were appearing as joint plaintiffs, so presumably they were in business together at that date, which is supported
                        by the fact that this Registration lists their names jointly as Registrants.
                        As to Neil's question regarding the allotted time scale for protection of U.K. Registered Designs  -  during the 'lozenge' period -
                        this was for three years only, although this did increase to five years post 1884.          Not sure why I should be surprised that
                        Prussia should have allowed a seven year time limit for similar protection, but it did strike me as not what I'd have imagined.
                        Have a feeling I've commented on this particular point previously, somewhere.
                        The fact that Kerr & Webb lost their action against Percival Vickers might suggest that the three year protection offered as legal
                        security for Registered Designs, really gave nothing substantive in law, and this very point may be the answer to Neil's query as
                        to why so few manufacturers appeared to decide not to Register their Designs.   

three ….. Reg. 221497 dated 10.09.1868  -  Kerr Webb & Co.

four  ....  Reg. 221795 dated 19.09.1868  -  Percival Vickers & Co. 

As usual, anyone is welcome to add to the above, in whatever way, additional information that increases our knowledge is always welcome.
I doubt that I've seen any of these four designs, so hopefully someone might have an example to show  -  the design of the P.V. goblet looks to
be heading in the direction of how several late C19 goblets evolved  -  lenses/thumbprints etc.

[agincourt17]

Notes on goblet RD 204182, registered by Michael & Lewis Beck of 7, Sun Street, Bishopsgate on 28 November 1866 - Parcel 5:

Even as I type this, there is an example of the design sitting on a shelf about four feet away!

I showed it in a GMB post back in 2012 at
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,49720.msg280817.html#msg280817
and I think the easiest thing to do is to duplicate that post (with photos) here for permanent reference.

A clear pressed ale glass with a hexagonal baluster stem, plain circular foot, and a tapered bowl with six facets impressed into the bottom part of the exterior.  The bowl interior bears a clear date lozenge for 28 November 1866 – Parcel 5.

The registrants were Michael & Lewis Beck of 7 Sun Street, Bishopsgate, London, and the corresponding RD number is 204182. (This seems to be the Beck’s only registered design).
 
Michael and Lewis Beck traded as Glass and China Merchants (or dealers, depending on the particular census returns).  Michael first appears in the trade in the 1851 census (aged 29) and Lewis (who was 4 years older) seems to join him sometime between 1861 and 1871. Lewis is trading alone by the 1881 census.

The potential link between the Beck brothers and James Derbyshire and Brother is indeed intriguing,  but I don't know of any supporting evidence.

Fred

[agincourt17]

Photos of goblet RD 221795, registered by Percival, Vickers & Co. Limited on 19 September 1868.

Fred.   

[neilh]

It is Andrew Ker with one R. I have been looking at his past a bit recently. He was a Manchester timber merchant until around the age of 60, and also my 3x great-grandfather's landlord! He formed Ker & Webb around 1866 with Thomas Webb, who was a cousin of the Webbs from Molineaux Webb, from Warrington originally. They split around 1875 after which Andrew Ker ran the Prussia Street glassworks until just before his death in the late 1880s, handing over to Samuel Ralphs, who ran it for a few years. Thomas Webb split to form a family business, Thomas Webb & Sons at Varley Street, which ran into liquidation around 1880. The Webbs fought tooth and nail to keep their business going, but ran out of gas in the late 1880s - they then moved to Salford and ran a new business called Webb Brothers, which existed in one form or another all the way up to around 1940. I talked to some descendants of this branch. They did have some surviving company papers but they were all nicked in a house burglary some time ago, drat!

[Paul S.]

sincere thanks to Fred and Neil for adding to the interest - and the pix of some of these particular Registrations is very much appreciated Fred.

Also appreciate the correction to the spelling of Ker, Neil.            Surprised that the wrong spelling was shown on the original factory drawing, and that's probably the source of the error in some of the books  -  you might have thought at least that source would have been correct.
I've just looked again at the Register for both 218486 and 221497, and can say that the spelling for the former is correct, whilst the slightly later Registration is shown as Kerr.

Very annoying to hear of the loss of family papers in the burglary  -  can't remotely think that such items would be of any use to anyone else  -  but guess burglars are nothing if not indiscriminate by nature.

Regret my memory not so good now, and matters from 2012, for Michael & Lewis Beck, had obviously escaped me

[Paul S.]

and to continue ………………..

one ……………   Reg. 223322 dated 23rd October 1868 - Percival Vickers.                          A pressed design for goblet with bowl decoration
                     similar to their Reg. 221795, which was included in the previous most recent post here.

two ……………...Reg. 225440 dated 14th December 1868 - Percival Vickers.            This design  -  a small handled can or tankard perhaps -     
                     seems to ring a bell  -  it may be that I've owned one somewhere in the past or seen an example elsewhere.            This is a 
                     good example of the - generally - mid Victorian or earlier method of attaching the handle top down  -  such handles often end up
                     with an attractive terminal to the lower part where the handle is finished - as does this example.

three ………..   Reg. 228612 dated 13th April 1869  -  James Derbyshire & Bro.             A goblet with fairly standard vertical mitres, mould
                     around the bowl, plus a moulded faceted stem.

four   ………..  Reg. 230596 dated 1st July 1869  -  Ker, Webb & Co.                 A not unattractive tumbler - I get the impression it wasn't a large,
                    but since none of the original factory drawings include sizes etc., then it's really only a guess on my part. 

Unable to say whether any or all of these Registrations have been shown on the Board previously, and as usual if anyone has additional details which they would care to add to the above information this will be of benefit to all.      thanks.

[agincourt17]

Photos of RD 223322, Percival, Vickers & Co. Ltd. on 23 October 1868 - Parcel 4.

Described on Neil's website at
https://sites.google.com/site/molwebbhistory/Home/registered-designs/percival-vickers-designs-by-date/percival-vickers-1868-1869
as "as 221795 except the body is straight and widens towards the top of the glass".

Fred.

[Paul S.]

many thanks Fred  -  appreciate the additional information.

[Paul S.]

four more Registered Designs, all from the second half of 1869.

one ……………….  Registration 230716 dated 5th July 1869 - Edward Bolton, Warrington.                    Decoration in the form of oval lenses and upright mitres  -  lenses appear fairly commonly on pressed glass - from around this date, though they were a feature on cut glass from earlier in the C19. 

two ………………   Registration 234517 dated 16th October 1869 - Percival Vickers & Co., Ltd., Manchester.              Attractive design showing bands of relief diamonds and from the factory drawing alone you'd be forgiven for thinking this was a cut pattern.             However, we assume this is a Registration for a pressed item, but can't be certain without confirmation from someone who owns this particular design.

three ............. Registration 235821 dated 6th November 1869 - Percival Vickers & Co., Ltd., Manchester.             A good example of a factory drawing that illustrates - by the dotted line - how the shape of the plunger creates the inner profile of the bottom of the tumbler.     
I assume the reasoning behind the narrowing of the plunger tip is simply a matter of mechanics  -  presumably it takes less effort to force the plunger into a mould full of molten glass if the leading tip of the plunger has less surface area - thus less resistance from the glass.
Very obviously a pressed item, with the decoration giving a nod toward a much earlier style of finger bottoms and slice cut panels.

four  .............. Registration 236002 dated 10th November 1869 - Ker, Webb & Co., Manchester.          An attractive goblet, and we're back again to the moulded lenses, plus an attractive stem with twist formation.

As always please feel free to add factual comments etc., particularly if anyone owns one of these four Registered designs - thanks