Topic: Opaline glass

[flying free]

Thank you Anne

I'm sorry but I'm laughing at the phrase '... in the time of the Venetians ..' with no qualification of the time period they are talking about. 

Those poor Venetians, do they no longer exist 



I presume when they said 'the time of the Venetians' they may have meant the 16th century/early 17th  and are referring to Neri's book.  But still ...

from the Corning
'Neri is famously known as the author of the first book devoted to the subject of making glass—L'Arte Vetraria, 1612.'

[Anne Tique]

That's what it says... only translating here 

Coincidentally, I'm waiting for a glass dictionary that I've ordered ... maybe it mentions something.

[Paul S.]

The C19 practise of re-striking to increase the opacity, in part or in full, was a process used to create some very well know and collectible glass - in the U.K. Davidson's patented production of yellow and blue Pearline might be one of the better known creations - and here the ingredients included calcium phosphate and arsenic as you've mentioned Anne.

For Baccarat in the early C19 it may have been this combination of the milky white translucent appearance together with the sunset glow from the phosphate and arsenic, that suggested the name opale - taken from the appearance of the semi precious stone - which it must have resembled.
Certainly a very obvious source for the name.

Look forward to hearing whether the new dictionary is helpful in this matter.

[flying free]

Possibly Paul, but as I linked to on the other thread, not all opals have that fiery glow.
So it seems the word as a descriptor may remain true to it's source, even if the glass does not have the fiery glow?

m

[Paul S.]

I will defer to your expertise in this matter m - you deserve a medal for all the research etc.         Do you ever eat and sleep?

Perhaps Anne's new dictionary will turn out to contain the definitive answer on this question of opale/opaline.

[flying free]

I do, but I have a report to write and I am prevaricating by doing glass instead    (thinking about the report at the same time though the report is a much less interesting topic!)

[Anne Tique]

Perhaps Anne's new dictionary will turn out to contain the definitive answer on this question of opale/opaline

I don't know what to expect though, it's a French edition from last year and after I'd ordered it I found only two comments on a different site ... one says it's great, the other one says it's a waste of time, but you never know, can't judge a thing unless you've seen it for yourself. It's a collection of terms, techniques etc gathered from artists, historians, antique specialists etc etc ...

I've been browsing through the book of Yves Delaborde - 'Le Verre Art & Design' and he mentions the following, I won't mention the process of obtaining this type of glass, as they're the same in each book and mentioned several times before now.

Opaline - "Type of crystal that reminds  of opal (as in precious stone), the colour is white-grey and presents a light iridescent effect. The word 'opaline' was not used until the beginning of the 20th C, but must have been invented around 1800 and developed at the Cristallerie du Creusot. During the First French Empire and the 'Restauration' period, its peak period, it was called 'Cristal d'Opale', referring to white opals. We also call coloured pieces 'opalines' but this is not to be confused with 'le verre opalin' or opalin glass, a term that is much older (17th C), that describes  compositions like porcelain glass (Porcelaine de Verre)  or lattimo."

Verre Opalin is not listed but it does say at 'Porcelaine de Verre' - "Invented to imitate porcelaine, when the process of producing porcelaine had not yet been discovered in Europe. The artist Bernard Perrot developed a technique to produce glass imitating porcelain and it's production was widely distributed at the end of the 17th and 18 th C. It stayed popular and fashionable until real porcelain was  produced in Europe. We call this technique 'Porcelaine de Verre', an opaque type of glass that is white, opalin glass and lattimo are productions  that are very similar."

I do realise that another word has been thrown in the discussion now, that one of porcelain glass, but I have come across this name, Bernard Perrot, before in relation to opalin(e) ... but can't find it back  ... maybe something to look into.

[flying free]

Thanks Anne.
 
There are some delightful pieces identified to Bernard Perrot.  And there is an interesting history attached to the maker and the glass.  Well worth reading up on.


m

[Anne Tique]

Sorry for the late reply, but it took an eternity to receive this book, but it repeats what's been said before in this thread.

Opalin : Term used in the 18th C for goblets in white tinted glass --> refers to Verre Opalin : Opaque and semi-translucent glass, Réaumur produced opalin glass, also called 'Porcelaine Glass' --> : Glass that is white of colour, produced by Bernard Perrot, glassblower originating from Italy ---> refers to Verre Opalin, so we're back to square one ... 

Opaline : Also called Cristal d'Opale due to the white and slightly iridescent colour, recalling the milky blue nuances of the opal stone, that can be more or less translucent. The term appeared during the Empire and Restauration periods in France, used for crystal and semi-crystal objects, more or less opaque or opalescent, in different 'soapy' colours : pink, yellow, white, blue and green. The peak period for opaline crystal is between 1790-1830 and from 1830 the industrial production is commenced (no further reference but i think this refers to the pressed glass, for example items in the Launay Hautain catalogue).

So, once again, i think that the term Opalin refers to the colour and Opaline to the production, where glass has become opaline due to the process mentioned earlier, by cooling it down and reheating it in several stages and, from what i understand, therefor blown glass. I do get the impression that this book used the other one mentioned earlier as a reference but it does not state where, it just mentions the writer has used the book of Yves Delaborde in it's credits, but for me,  this also clears up the term 'Opaline de Foire' which is a cheaper production of  pressed and coloured glass, sometimes with cold applied decoration, think of Portieux-Vallerysthal for example.

I think that with time, the terms stuck but their meaning got 'watered down' a bit.

[Paul S.]

thanks Anne  -  I think most people would consider that the various explanations and interpretations quoted here, by m and yourself show, if nothing else, that our problem is not one of simply searching the history books for a irrefutable definition which may then be used as a 'yardstick' with which we can finally simplify how we describe this particular glass.
Rather it might be as much the issue that 200 years of different cultures/countries/languages have corrupted whatever the original thoughts may have been  .............    there is perhaps a similar confusion which concerns 'uranium/Vaseline/pearline (in glass), and in some crafts different countries use different words to describe an identical structure - optional words but which mean the same thing  ..........   think signatures and sections - in bookbinding.

There doesn't seem much point arguing against the word opalin being a term which describes something with the properties similar to the precious stone - one criteria of which is that it must have the sunset glow - in common with the stone.
Re-struck glass containing phosphates produces this final appearance - but are we obliged confine its use to blown glass - what about some of the re-struck pressed glass - do you think?             

George Davidson (U.K.), used the word Pearline as a trademark/patent description, and we assume he was thinking of the natural pearl as his term of reference  -  he was very keen on words like milky and opaque - and the Pottery Gazette was keen to comment that G.D. terminology was 'very appropriate'.             Not sure why I've put that in - but there is some connection re the use of terminology taken from nature.

Do I agree Anne with your use of the word Opaline to describe 'the production' - possibly not - without getting into semantics, I think many people would simply use this word to describe glass with the properties of opal, as we've been discussing - rather than confine use of the word to 'the production' of the glass.                            But, apologies if I've misunderstood your words.

Sorry to hear the dictionary wasn't quite the holy grail you'd hoped for  ...........   I guess you might send it back and get a refund